Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

[Abraxas]

With your interpretation of the HiPS ability, this rogue could pull off a full round of sneak-attacks with a successful, non-penalized Hide Check. After all, he can hide in plain sight, even with all the attention on him.

Four things
1) He can only get 1 sneak attack regardless of the number of iterative attacks his BAB grants w/o a -20 penalty to his hide check. Why? Because as soon as he attacks he is either no longer hiding, thus the target is no longer denied his dex, thus no more sneak attacks or he is hiding at a -20 penalty. If he doesn't want the penalty he has to stop attacking and rehide.

2) Your right, he can Hide In Plain Sight at no penalty with all attention on him. Why? Becasue thats what HiPS allows the character to do.

3) A Rog7/Wiz1 with a wand of Greater Invisibility can get a full round of sneak attacks, every round he is invisible.

4) If the target survives the 1, and only 1, sneak attack made against him with an unpenalized hide check, he can then ready to charge and attack before the hiding Rog/SD can attack. Since the Rog/SD must be within 30 feet, it is unlikely that the victim won't be able to reach him or do something particularly nasty to him before his next attack. (Or he can just spend as much on armor of his own and get +1 full plate of moderate fortification and negate that pesky sneak attack 75% of the time, and at higher levels the heavy fortification negates it 100% of the time).

Why should the expenditure of a little cash trump the expenditure of feats and skill points to obtain a Supernatural Ability?

The fact that spot is not a class skill for most characters shouldn't be a deciding factor on how an ability works. Same halfling without the shadowdancer levels could just as easily avoid detection by attacking in a wooded area and moving after each attack (thus getting out of sight and only suffering a -10 to his check for having to move fast).

Just like the last time this discussion came up - we agree to disagree

 

[crater]

Yep, it's hotting up!....

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

So reading through the ability description again it occured to me; why do they say that you cannot hide IN you own shadow? Does that mean that you are assumed to be hiding IN some other shadow when you HiPS? I mean, they are SHADOW Dancers after all!

This makes it a lot clearer, the Shadowdancer needs to be close to a shadow because thats what he hides in, just like you can move your hide ranks in feet when you bluff to create a distraction to hide, you get to move 10' to a shadow other than your own without even having to create a distraction. Of course you can attempt to hide if you are being observed, and the shadow doesnt need to provide any actual concealment or cover.

Ok, obviously I know it doesnt actually say that you have to move into the shadow, and I also know that it doesnt actually say that you have to move at all, but before you Shadowdancers all jump down my throat you have to admit that it does imply that from the 'in your own shadow' bit.

So in my opinion what is implied is that you have to be within 10' of a shadow to HiPS, but you cant hide IN your own shadow, therefore you have to hide IN something elses shadow.

Where does this leave the -20 argument? I don't really know!

 

[IceBear]

How can you hide in something you can't catch? A shadow cast by something or someone else is stationary with respect to you, so you can move INTO it. Try to step into your own shadow

 

[crater]

Icebear: I couldnt have put it better myself. So do you agree that a Shadowdancer has to actually enter the shadow that is within 10' of him in order to HiPS?

 

[crater]

A shadowdancer's hide in plain sight ability makes it possible to "hide" without actually moving.

Thats not necessarily true. Even if he is positioned in a shadow already then a SD still has to actively attempt to hide in order to get a roll. That should involve some movement on his part. Even David Copperfield needs to twirl his black cape infront of him in order to disappear before our very eyes!

 

[crater]

3) A 7th/8th level wizard or sorcerer (same as level 1 shadowdancer) can "hide in plain sight" and attack freely with Greater Invisibility, getting both defensive bonuses and denying their opponents their dex bonus to defense. It makes no sense that a character built around the concept of stealthy sniping is significantly weaker at their primary skill.

That Wizard becomes just another monkey standing in a field in plain view when an opponent with See Invisible or Blind Sight comes along. Your Shadowdancer remains hidden from view.

 

[Abraxas]

Ok, obviously I know it doesnt actually say that you have to move into the shadow, and I also know that it doesnt actually say that you have to move at all, but before you Shadowdancers all jump down my throat you have to admit that it does imply that from the 'in your own shadow' bit.

Or, much simpler, it could mean that you have to be within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own to use the ability. The implication of movement into a shadow doesn't hold. If movement was needed and something prevented the SD's movement into the shadow he wouldn't be able to use the ability. That's an awfully big limitation to leave out of the ability's description if it was meant to work that way.

Its an on/off effect - are there shadows, other than your own, within 10 ft?
Yes - HiPS works
No - HiPS doesn't work
The shadows don't do anything according to the description but this.

Hiding is an not an action (Action:None), but is usually combined with a Move Action, a move action does not require actual movement. PHB pg 138 "A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time."

That Wizard becomes just another monkey standing in a field in plain view when an opponent with See Invisible or Blind Sight comes along. Your Shadowdancer remains hidden from view.

Blindsight reveals that shadowdancer as well. "The target creature's senses extend to a 30-foot radius, and the creature need not make spot or listen checks to notice creatures within this range."

I really enjoy these SD and HiPS discussions. Not because I play one (I don't) but because they stay so civil (Really. This isn't a sarcastic comment).

 

[Fedifensor]

I think we would all have been better off if WotC had never come up with the silliness that is Hide in Plain Sight. It's a refuge for people who don't want to put any effort into being stealthy. Of course, the whole "I can see in 360 degrees without fail" issue that comes from a lack of facing in the game isn't much better.

 

[Majere]

Meh its so simple, or so I though having played a shadowdancer/rogue/sorcerer through to 18th level:

You can attack and then hide. You get one attack and then hide (unless hasted) this can be a sneak attack if unobserved. There is no penalty for hiding in this course of action
It requires something to hide behind. Even then the enemy are liable to know what square you are in etc.

You can takes a full attck option, and a 5 foot step. You can attempt to "hide while attacking". This entails a -20 on your hide check.
You still require somewhere to hide, and you must "not be observed".
i.e. you must have been hidden before your attack.

HipS
Allows you to hide while being observed or while in cover. All it means is that you can hide in circumstances you might not normally be able to.
It does NOT make it any easier to hide, just increases the possibilities of when you may hide.
You still take -5 to move at full speed or -10 to run while hiding. Even using hide in plain sight.

Overall
The -20 still applies if he takes a full round attack
If he takes one then he can hide at no penalty but not move
Or he can take a single shot, hide at -20 and then move half his speed.

Majere

 

[Majere]

Further to the above
HiPS just rocks and even with greater invis my shadow dancer still hides when attacking and when scouting.
Firstly because its a shot to nothing, I dont give up anything to "hide while blah".
Secondly I have close to +45 on my hide so even at +25 I beat most peoples spot easily. (Note you get +20 to hiding while invisible, thus my normal hide when scouding is +65, even dragons have trouble spotting me)
Thirdly HiPS will defeat see invis, invis purge, true sight, and so on and so forth. Blind sight is about the only way to defeat hiding, or spot out your wazoo.

HiPS is reall rather neat, learn to love it.
The thing about hiding in your own shadow is to limit HiPS, becsue otherwise you could hide in your own shadow in the middle of the desert at midday which is just silly.

Majere