Hide in Plain Sight and Sniping

[crater]

Or, much simpler, it could mean that you have to be within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own to use the ability. The implication of movement into a shadow doesn't hold. If movement was needed and something prevented the SD's movement into the shadow he wouldn't be able to use the ability. That's an awfully big limitation to leave out of the ability's description if it was meant to work that way.

But thats exactly my point! It DOES say that you have to be IN a shadow to HiPS. The addition of 'You cannot hide in your own shadow' to the ability description suggests that you have to hide in some other shadow.

Blindsight reveals that shadowdancer as well. "The target creature's senses extend to a 30-foot radius, and the creature need not make spot or listen checks to notice creatures within this range."

Well ok, maybe not Blindsight then.

 

[Abraxas]

But thats exactly my point! It DOES say that you have to be IN a shadow to HiPS. The addition of 'You cannot hide in your own shadow' to the ability description suggests that you have to hide in some other shadow.

NO, IT DOESN'T. It says that you have to be "within 10 feet of some sort of shadow" not "in some sort of shadow". Not being able to use her own shadow doesn't suggest anything - it is a stated limit on the SD's use of the ability.

Once again the discussion comes back to restating positions.

 

[Aaron2]

Now, you could also have been hidden last round, and fire your weapon normally (ie. not trying to remain unseen) this round, then re-hide as part of your movement (without the -20 penalty). But this wouldn't allow SA, unless some other rule allows it. If there isn't some kind of concealment with which to move completely behind to break the line of sight between you and your target, then you do need HiPS to complete this however.

I still don't understand why you insist that attacking while Hidden doesn't give you SA damage unless you are Sniping. What about all those first level rogues who hide and then attack while hidden? What if you are sniping but blow your follow-up Hide roll and remain seen?

Attacking while Hiding give SA damage regardless of whether decide to remain in view, snipe, or Hide afterwards with HiPS.


Aaron

 

[Aaron2]

You know, someone mentioned "If the guy hides using HiPS the enemies know what square he is in? Well, one little mistake you made. That same PC can quite easily move 15' as part of his hide action. Thus, they have NO F'ing clue which square he is in. Since Hiding allows movement at half for no penalty.

That depends on whether you make the Hide roll before or after the movement. In a normal situation, it doesn't matter since you can't hide while being watched but with HIPS, it might.


Aaron

 

[IceBear]

I still don't understand why you insist that attacking while Hidden doesn't give you SA damage unless you are Sniping. What about all those first level rogues who hide and then attack while hidden? What if you are sniping but blow your follow-up Hide roll and remain seen?

Attacking while Hiding give SA damage regardless of whether decide to remain in view, snipe, or Hide afterwards with HiPS.


Aaron

I thought they were saying that you only get SA on the first attack when you're hidden.

 

[mikebr99]

I still don't understand why you insist that attacking while Hidden doesn't give you SA damage unless you are Sniping. What about all those first level rogues who hide and then attack while hidden? What if you are sniping but blow your follow-up Hide roll and remain seen?

Attacking while Hiding give SA damage regardless of whether decide to remain in view, snipe, or Hide afterwards with HiPS.


Aaron

I am trying to rationalize why WoTC would enact the Sniping rule at all... If all there was to do was, attack from a hidden position, then move equiv back into hiding, w/o the -20 DC hide check... and still get the SA damage.

I'm saying this can't happen (Invisibility excluded of course), unless you state, at the beginning of your turn (if you had already been hidden last round) that you are sniping. Which really should have been called a special full round action (YMMV) as it takes up all you actions.

Hiding is not as good as Invisibility, at least WRT attacking an unaware target. A target becomes aware of you sooner when you attack from a hidden position, then when you attack from an Invisible position.

Mike

 

[Aaron2]

I am trying to rationalize why WoTC would enact the Sniping rule at all... If all there was to do was, attack from a hidden position, then move equiv back into hiding, w/o the -20 DC hide check... and still get the SA damage.

Lets assume that HiPS doesn't exist. Now, sniping is the only way to get SA damage throughout multiple rounds. Normally, once you attack you lose Hidden status and you are observed and thus can't Hide again. At this point, in order to get another SA, your rogue character is forced to try to engage in a melee flank or completely leave the sight of the enemy to somehow Hide again. In effect, there is normally little reason to limit SA to sniping.

HiPS does have some disadvantages over Sniping. Since you can momentarily see the HIPSer, you can ready an attack against him. Also, since you know his location (or at least his general location depending on how your rule Hide while moving) you can cast a Light spell to remove the shadow or simply move to where the line of fire is blocked.

Anyone want to discuss the relationship between shadows and Darkvision? Do shadows even apply wrt Darkvision?


Aaron

 

[crater]

It says that you have to be "within 10 feet of some sort of shadow" not "in some sort of shadow". Not being able to use her own shadow doesn't suggest anything - it is a stated limit on the SD's use of the ability.

I wasn't restating my position, this 'in your own shadow' thing only occured to me when the HiPS description was posted earlier in this thread.

It doesn't say that you can't use your own shadow as a trigger for the ability, it says that you can't hide in your own shadow, very specifically. Admittedly you have to then do a bit of guess work as to what that implies. If you weren't supposed to hide in a shadow, why would they say that you can't hide in your own shadow? This brief sentence on the end of the ability description casts what was said before in a different light, if you'll pardon the expression.

It doesn't really directly affect sniping, but it's nice to spoil Shadowdancers' fun once in a while!

 

[Abraxas]

If you were supposed to hide in a shadow why would they say within 10' of a shadow and not in a shadow? The statement about her own shadow doesn't change what was said before at all. The SD can be within 10' of a shadow without being in a shadow and can then HiPS.

The comment about restating was pointing out that in every discussion about shadowdancers and their abilities the discussion invariably turns to restating an argument. Your side keeps saying that the sd actually has to be in the shadow, takes the -20 penalty, etc. - my side keeps saying they don't have to be in shadow, don't take the -20 penalty, etc.

As for the sniping, well weveryone pretty much gave up on trying to convince anyone else a while ago. I still think the SD can make the ranged attack and then hide while performing some other action at no penalty. YMMV

Take it easy.