Hide in Plain Sight item?

[Jack Simth]

Not true, it takes a while to blow that kind of money on one item, I think most people would want the darkvision right away. Requiring a light source to scout in the dark is pretty self-defeating.

Optimizers do avoid overlapping abilities. Part of optimization is where you start. The person starting the game by building a 10th level character? He's not going to need to play a race with Darkvision if he's planning on picking up this item. The person starting the game with a 1st level character might, true. But then, he might also just shrug at the first three or four levels of inconvenience, borrow a Darkvision spell off the Wizard until he can get the item, or arrange things so that the light source isn't where he is (Dancing Lights is a cantrip, and is nearly perfect to UMD off a scroll for this purpose; likewise, a rock with Light on it can be tossed into the middle of the room; a Darkness spell can be placed on a movable object, is blocked by a covering that blocks light, and... provides Shadowy Illumination (enough to Hide!) inside it's radius... and the shadowy illumination so provided ignores most sources of Darkvision and Low-Light vision). You don't have to have darkvision as a low-level sneak. You just need to get a little creative on how to work around not having it.

Or it might not be the rogue that wants it - a Cleric with the Trickery domain gets Hide as a class skill (as does the Ranger, Monk, Bard, and a couple other classes). Scouting dungeons with no inherent light sources is not the only use for stealth, and lots of dungeon and dungeon-like areas you'll want to scout will have their own light sources for the convenience of their inhabitants.

You're targetting an extremely small number of character concepts with this argument, not considering someone who is trying to make effective use for it. You appear to be primarily targeting people who don't optimize - which, as WotC and the 3.5 Wizard and Cleric classes have shown, is a fairly bad idea in terms of game balance (the Core Wizard matches up well against a Core Fighter, provided the Wizard exclusively uses direct-damage evocations as his method of incapacitating opponents; the Core Cleric is reasonably balanced with a Core Fighter provided the Cleric plays as a heal-bot, and ignores all those nifty buff, debuff, combat control, and save-or-lose spells available to the Cleric; either requires the Fighter has a modicum of skill with his character build).

And yet, if you were looking to balance the item, I bet anyone looking at the collar wouldn't cry for a second if you were to remove the resistance benefit. Sure, it's nice to have. But it's packaged in, most stealthy types really won't care, especially given the likelihood of such characters to have high ref and touch AC plus evasion anyway. On a side note, why is that part of the Dark template? Seems kind of random to me.

Of course nobody would cry if you removed it. Direct damage isn't really the most effective method of getting rid of things, and so defense against direct damage isn't generally particularly worthwhile. But it's still there, so when I'm checking the value of the item, I include it in the listing of costs.

Ok, if you were trying to prove a point that you should NEVER use the table to figure out item value, well done. I get it.

And you completely ignore that the Ring of Evasion, also a class ability, is 25k... and Evasion is easier to get than Hide in Plain Sight (ignoring the Ring, it's 2 class level, rather than the minimum of 8 for a non-item Hide in Plain Sight), and the limitless-use version of the collar grants Hide in Plain Sight for less than the cost of a Ring of Evasion.

The first step on the "estimating magic item gold-piece values" in the DMG is "compare to existing items" - and Hide in Plain Sight is more likely to make a lot of campaigns almost trivial than is evasion (especially when it comes packaged with bonuses to both Hide and Move Silently, and doesn't interfere with simple methods of getting more bonuses to Hide and Move Silently).

Deset Gled started off by comparing Hide in Plain Sight to Invisibility (and with a build to make use of Hide in Plain Sight, it's nearly as good in many ways, and better in many; See Invisibility and True Sight don't help against actual use of the Hide skill, for instance). His (?) is a reasonable approach, at least to start.

But it came out closer in time to MIC than the DMG, so I think it's fair to go by that book's assessment of what an item's worth more than the DMG. And really, part of the problem is the 3.5 DMG overreacted to wealth issues. For example, in 3.0, the goggles of darkvision were 6000 gp. They doubled this in the update.

... and Wings of Flying went from 5,500 gp to 54,000 gp. Costs "Standard" items (Armor +'s, weapon +'s, wand costs, scroll costs, and so on) didn't change (which have some of the larger impact on a character's equipment and wealth). Some things even went down in price - the Immovable Rod, for instance, dropped from 7,500 to 5,000.

I don't think it's fair to assume that the 3.0 -> 3.5 price changes were overractions. Nor do I think it's fair to go by the Magic Item Compendium's judgements on costs considering that Core material gets more playtesting.

So I trust MIC more for comparison. And I think while the minutes/day version may be a little underpriced, it's the constant use version that's an absolute bargain. IT should probably be closer to 40,000 roughly, as I said before.

So we both agree, at a minimum, that the item is underpriced, it's more a question of what magnitude. Eh, good enough.

That was a typo, I meant 3000. And yeah, it's a great deal for +1 LA, to the point of very broken. I've come to decide I wouldn't allow it for templates*, since you can stick that onto anything, but I don't think it's so bad for races. I don't know about you, but LA buyoff games are the only ones I even see LA races, and even in those games, half or more of the players go human. I'm willing to offer a sweet deal in the name of diversity. This is going ver off-topic, though.

*But my point was the collar would be much less monstrous in a group that does allow LA buyoff for templates, so that point stands.

Funny how when playing with a "stronger characters" variant, something becomes less bad - you'd almost think that means that the original something was stronger than it should have been to begin with....

 

[nathreet]

Goggles of the night: 3 x 2 x 2000gp x 1 (duration = 1 hour/level) = 12,000gp. These are priced exactly according to the pricing guidelines. Note that shorter duration spells cost more when making unlimited use magic items.

spot check vs invisiblity: No, you cannot actually see an invisible creature with a spot check. It's a +20 to the DC to notice an invisible person, but you still have no clue which 5' square he's in (you notice something somewhere in that general direction). Add another 20 to know which 5 foot square he's in (+40!), and even then you get the 50% miss chance because you still can't see him.

invisiblity vs. hide in plain site: Invisiblity has the advantage of letting you go anywhere without being seen. As I mentioned in a previous post, you cannot use hide in plain site to hide right in front of an enemy, unless you are in an area of shadowy illumination, fog or otherwise having a source of partial concealment. Hiding always requires partial concealment or partial cover. Plus attacking said enemy gives you a -20 to your hide check.

Normally you can't jump behind a bush while someone is watching. He'll still know where you are even if you're great at hiding. Hide in plain sight removes that restriction. That's it! It's not actually all that special and it's nothing like invisibility.

I had a HiPS build before, but the more carefully I've looked at the rules the more I realize that it's better to just get some kind of invisibility. And if some people can counter it sometimes under certain circumstances (unless you counter the counter, etc., etc.) then wonderful, that's part of what makes a game good.

[sblock=core and balance (tangent)]Most complaints about imbalance in core come from comparing apples to oranges. Granted, an apple might be better than an orange, but when you want this orange or that orange, core is remarkably well balanced in that regard. Then the difference between the two oranges usually exists only in the mind of certain people. And this shouldn't be a surprise, what with all the playtesting they did of all the rules, when most experienced players still don't understand a lot of rules.[/sblock]

 

[Ambrus]

Wow. There's been lots of interesting discussion in this thread.

Thanks for the heads up about the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis Jhaelen. It's certainly a sexy magic item, though I agree it's likely a bit underpriced for everything it provides.

I have to admit, I had to take a closer look at the Hide in Plain Sight ability after reading some of the posts in this thread. I'm guilty of being one of those people who'd misunderstood how it's supposed to work for a long time. It certainly seems much less useful than I originally thought. Seems it'd be simpler to have a character duck around a corner to gain total cover and then backtrack while remaining hidden to circumvent the problem of being initially observed by an opponent.

It also led me to carefully reread the Hide skill, Concealment and Cover rules to get a solid handle on how it's all supposed to work. I was surprised that I was unable to find any mention in either the PH or DMG stating what benefit, if any, being hidden provides when attacking a foe. I mean, I know that it denies an opponent its Dex bonus to AC and provides a further +2 to attack, just like being invisible, but I don't know how I know that; I couldn't find any such rule anywhere. Can someone point me to it for the sake of my own sanity?

 

[Deset Gled]

As I mentioned in a previous post, you cannot use hide in plain site to hide right in front of an enemy, unless you are in an area of shadowy illumination, fog or otherwise having a source of partial concealment. Hiding always requires partial concealment or partial cover.

I strongly disagree with this statement. The rules for HiPS state "As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin/shadowdancer can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind." It seems to me this is explicitly stating the exact opposite of what you claim.

Are you perhaps refering to the ranger's version of HiPS, which is only states "While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed"? If so, please keep in mind the ranger's Camoflage ability, which states "A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. " Combined, these two abilities mimic the ability of the other two PrCs mentioned (in Ex form, under different conditions).

 

[Bloodhawk]

Hide

I strongly disagree with this statement. The rules for HiPS state "As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin/shadowdancer can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind." It seems to me this is explicitly stating the exact opposite of what you claim.

Are you perhaps refering to the ranger's version of HiPS, which is only states "While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed"? If so, please keep in mind the ranger's Camoflage ability, which states "A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. " Combined, these two abilities mimic the ability of the other two PrCs mentioned (in Ex form, under different conditions).

sorry to bring this backup... and I’m not sure if this has been answered. IF it has please direct me to the right thread.

In the PHB it says “Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit area normally as well as dark area within 60feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or had cover.”


So my question would be… if a rogue or even a Assassin/shadowdancer hides in 20by20 room with only shadow as cover/concealment and there is nothing else in the room. Then say a guard comes into that room with Darkvision so there is no shadows to them. Is the rogue still hidden or is he completely visible to the guard? Or would the guard still need to make a spot check to see him?

Another side question.. If a shadowdance is using darkvision (that they get at 2nd level) how can he see a shadow to hide in it, if there is no other cover/concealment besides shadow or darkness?

any help would be great as this is being discussed in my D&D group.

 

[FEADIN]

HINPS is a powerful ability when you can use it, it saved the spellthief (Dark template) saturday from Bar Lgura who attacked by night even in close combat he could retrat and hide disappearing totally (high skill bonuses) in the forest despite the darkvision.
The question is good if it's in a shadowy empty room and the enemy has darkvision.....mmmmmm.
I think they didn't thought about hide in plain sight when they wrote the sentence about "no hide with darkvision", for me you can.

 

[Physiker]

So my question would be… if a rogue or even a Assassin/shadowdancer hides in 20by20 room with only shadow as cover/concealment and there is nothing else in the room. Then say a guard comes into that room with Darkvision so there is no shadows to them. Is the rogue still hidden or is he completely visible to the guard? Or would the guard still need to make a spot check to see him?

I would rule that no spot check is necessary because of common sense, but a Ring of Darkhidden (2000gp IIRC) should solve this problem

 

[Bloodhawk]

Thank you for the replies!

Any word on my second question?

If a shadowdancer is using darkvision (that they get at 2nd level) how can he see a shadow to hide in it, if there is no other cover/concealment besides shadow or darkness?

And also could use his ability shadow jump if he is using darkvision?

 

[irdeggman]

It also led me to carefully reread the Hide skill, Concealment and Cover rules to get a solid handle on how it's all supposed to work. I was surprised that I was unable to find any mention in either the PH or DMG stating what benefit, if any, being hidden provides when attacking a foe. I mean, I know that it denies an opponent its Dex bonus to AC and provides a further +2 to attack, just like being invisible, but I don't know how I know that; I couldn't find any such rule anywhere. Can someone point me to it for the sake of my own sanity?

Rules Compendium pg 92

if you're successfully hidden with respect toanother creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible.

This is a rules change or clarification if you will - but it is considered "official".

RC pg 76

An invisible attacker gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against opponents that can't see it. Opponents are denied their Dexterity bonuses to AC against an invisible attacker's attacks.

The +2 to attacks is in addition to the defender being denied their Dex bonus to AC.

 

[irdeggman]

Thank you for the replies!

Any word on my second question?

If a shadowdancer is using darkvision (that they get at 2nd level) how can he see a shadow to hide in it, if there is no other cover/concealment besides shadow or darkness?

And also could use his ability shadow jump if he is using darkvision?

Darkvision doesn't mean that shadows no longer exist only that they provide no concealment to you. Shades of grey and all of that (no color when using dark vision).