Pathfinder 1E Hide in Plain Sight = poor man's invisibility?

[gamerprinter]

He is permitted to use Stealth under observation, and with no cover or concealment.

This.

Darkvision has nothing to do with it. Darkvision is a different ability, but in no way bypasses Hide in Plain Sight. So you can see in a dark shadow with darkvision. Logic or no, it still cannot see someone who is successfully Hiding in Plain Sight, while involving shadows, has nothing to do with darkness.

You guys are adding meaning and extra words, where they do not belong.

You can houserule it that it works that way, but by RAW it just doesn't work that way.

All you need is a successful Perception check with appropriate DC - not special vision.

Orc darkvision isn't magic, right? So why do you consider darkvision magic - it's not. While a spell can grant this natural ability to someone who does not possess it, the magic is applying the ability, not the ability itself.

The way I read darkvision is that you have to be in total darkness for it to work. If someone is hiding in plain sight, they are in a well lit area that has shadows in it. You need normal vision to see in such light, darkvision does not work when you're not in total darkness. Orcs have normal vision too, and that's what's required to use Perception to see someone HiPS. Also note HiPS doesn't work in total darkness...

 

[Abraxas]

I agree that none of SU, Ex or Spell determinatively answer the Darkvision question. I'd say that the question is whether the character can use Stealth. He is permitted to use Stealth under observation, and with no cover or concealment.

Looking at the ability itself, and the Stealth description, it seems like an issue that would be appropriate for a FAQ. Absent that, I think the GM needs to make a judgement call.

You answered this question with your 3rd sentence above.

If the Shadowdancer is manipulating the shadows in the dim light to provide a place to hide, then this would logically be negated by Darkvision - it's like hiding behind a plate glass door. If we interpret the ability to thicken the shadows so even Darkvision cannot penetrate them to see the Shadowdancer, then any other Stealth user should be able to use the same thickened shadows to use Stealth against opponents with Darkvision. If the shadows are limited to the Shadowdancer, his concealment is pretty ineffective as the Darkvision user need only strike at the portion of the shadows his Darkvision can't penetrate.

We can certainly put the Rules Blinders on and assume that, since the rules are terse and don't specify the implications of the ability, it must somehow provide the ability to hide from Darkvision users in the shadows that they can otherwise see through. However, it seems more logical to interpret what the Shadowdancer's abilities actually do, and rule that Darkvision is not affected by conditions of dim light, so using dim light to enhance stealth, as the Shadowdancer does, is futile against anything with Darkvision.

It's not "rules blinders". The shadowdancer can hide while being observed using HiPS. The only requirement of HiPS is the presence of a non-personal shadow within 10ft - this is a binary condition, you either have it or you don't. How exactly does being able to see through shadows negate the presence of shadows?

That said, it seems like the rules continually expand to prevent any possible interpretation issues (such as not being able to create water in someone's lungs, not being able to target specific body parts with Magic Missiles, etc.), so it would not seem unreasonable to interpret HiPS to (for unexplained reasons) permit the user to use shadows to hide from creatures that can see through shadows, even though the same shadows will provide no concealment for anyone else.

It's not an unexplained reason. It's in the ability's description. It's a supernatural ability that eliminates the need for concealment. It needs no more explanation than does a wizard casting a lightning bolt spell.

 

[gamerprinter]

Whenever my players are trying to get a given rule to fit in their head, and then using real world physics (how light, darkness and vision works), I tell them to throw all that out the window. Read the rules - that's how the ability works.

The rules fit the real world very loosely, just enough so that different rules can work together in game effectively and can 'loosely' simulate the concept. When you're trying to understand how a given ability works comparing it to the real world, you are playing a thought exercise, but in no way are you explaining the rules as written.

It's best to leave real world physics in the real world, and rely on the rules as written for the game.

 

[Empirate]

Whenever my players are trying to get a given rule to fit in their head, and then using real world physics (how light, darkness and vision works), I tell them to throw all that out the window. Read the rules - that's how the ability works.

The rules fit the real world very loosely, just enough so that different rules can work together in game effectively and can 'loosely' simulate the concept. When you're trying to understand how a given ability works comparing it to the real world, you are playing a thought exercise, but in no way are you explaining the rules as written.

It's best to leave real world physics in the real world, and rely on the rules as written for the game.

QFT. Especially when the rules text in question refers to a (Su) ability in the first place...

 

[N'raac]

This.

Darkvision has nothing to do with it. Darkvision is a different ability, but in no way bypasses Hide in Plain Sight. So you can see in a dark shadow with darkvision. Logic or no, it still cannot see someone who is successfully Hiding in Plain Sight, while involving shadows, has nothing to do with darkness.

Then how does it work? There is a necessary verisimilitude to magic for many games, and many gamers. If Hide in Plain Sight uses nearby shadows to provide the concealment needed to use stealth (thus negating the requirement to not be observed - the shadows drift in and conceal the target), and darkvision eliminates the concealment otherwise provided by shadows, then darkvision seems a useful counter for HiPS.

HiPS does not enable the character to go undetected - it enables him to use stealth. Will stealth work while the character is clanging a hammer loudly on his shield and singing out of tune tavern songs, simply because he has HiPS? I'd say no - stealth allows you to be silent and undetected. You are not being silent. If an enemy has hearing so precise your heartbeat is like pounding drums to him, your stealth cannot enable you to avoid detection by that enemy. And if your enemy can see through shadows and darkness, then the use of shadows and darkness to hide is reasonably ruled to be ineffective.

The way I read darkvision is that you have to be in total darkness for it to work.

Wait, WE'RE reading in extra words?

Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

Emphasis added. If you are in total darkness, then there is no presence of light. As the presence of light does not spoil darkvision, your assertion that the creature must be in total darkness to use his darkvision is contrary to the clear rules as written. A creature with 60' darkvision can hold a torch which lights the area out to 20' and creates dim light 20' further out, and see normally out to 60'. He gets the better of the two - he can see colour within the light, and can see in B&W out to 60'.

If someone is hiding in plain sight, they are in a well lit area that has shadows in it. You need normal vision to see in such light, darkvision does not work when you're not in total darkness. Orcs have normal vision too, and that's what's required to use Perception to see someone HiPS. Also note HiPS doesn't work in total darkness...

Again, my preference is a game with some verisimilitude, where special abilities work for a reason. I read the Shadowdancer as manipulating nearby shadows to provide the concealment required for stealth, consistent with the statement that "they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception". The same HiPS ability could be explained by bizarre chameleon-like powers that enable the user to blend with his environment (an ability which likely also suffers when the viewer only sees in B&W, but maybe not - orange tigers blend with green foliage when the viewer sees in B&W), or by some quasi-invisibility bending of light around the user. Neither of these, however, seem consistent with the Shadowdancer's description as "A mysterious adventurer who walks the boundaries between the real world and the realm of shadows, and who can command shadows to do her bidding."

A character is more than a bunch of game mechanics jumbled together with no rhyme or reason. The abilities have a cause and effect. Those should mesh with other rules of the game. Prestige classes, especially, should fit the game world and add to its backdrop. If they're just a set of mechanical attributes with no real tie to the game world, then they don't fit and should be removed from that game.

Returning to the topic of adding words, I again note that the rules clearly state that darkvision does indeed work when you're not in total darkness. As well, nothing in the HiPS descrpition actually says it cannot be used in total darkness. It says you must be within 10' of dim light, not that you must be in either the dim or brighter light nearby. Beyond dim light is often darkness.

 

[Abraxas]

Then how does it work? There is a necessary verisimilitude to magic for many games, and many gamers. If Hide in Plain Sight uses nearby shadows to provide the concealment needed to use stealth (thus negating the requirement to not be observed - the shadows drift in and conceal the target), and darkvision eliminates the concealment otherwise provided by shadows, then darkvision seems a useful counter for HiPS.

It doesn't use nearby shadows to provide concealment - the shadowdancer doesn't need concealment - she can hide while being observed.

HiPS does not enable the character to go undetected - it enables him to use stealth. Will stealth work while the character is clanging a hammer loudly on his shield and singing out of tune tavern songs, simply because he has HiPS? I'd say no - stealth allows you to be silent and undetected. You are not being silent. If an enemy has hearing so precise your heartbeat is like pounding drums to him, your stealth cannot enable you to avoid detection by that enemy. And if your enemy can see through shadows and darkness, then the use of shadows and darkness to hide is reasonably ruled to be ineffective.

What you are describing sounds like blindsense - it would let a creature locate the shadowdancer, but still suffer from not actually being able to see her.

Wait, WE'RE reading in extra words?

- snip your description of darkvision -

In the case of darkvision you aren't reading in extra words. You are, however, adding extra conditions to the description of HiPS.

Again, my preference is a game with some verisimilitude, where special abilities work for a reason. I read the Shadowdancer as manipulating nearby shadows to provide the concealment required for stealth, consistent with the statement that "they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception". The same HiPS ability could be explained by bizarre chameleon-like powers that enable the user to blend with his environment (an ability which likely also suffers when the viewer only sees in B&W, but maybe not - orange tigers blend with green foliage when the viewer sees in B&W), or by some quasi-invisibility bending of light around the user. Neither of these, however, seem consistent with the Shadowdancer's description as "A mysterious adventurer who walks the boundaries between the real world and the realm of shadows, and who can command shadows to do her bidding."

You want versimilitude? How about this, the HiPS ability lets the shadowdancer become shadow - thus darkvision sees right through it and her, as if she wasn't there. Now it fits your vision of the fluff text and satisfies the RAW.

A character is more than a bunch of game mechanics jumbled together with no rhyme or reason. The abilities have a cause and effect. Those should mesh with other rules of the game. Prestige classes, especially, should fit the game world and add to its backdrop. If they're just a set of mechanical attributes with no real tie to the game world, then they don't fit and should be removed from that game.

The ability meshes fine with the other rules of the game - you are adding to some of the rules and changing how the ability works.

 

[gamerprinter]

Then how does it work?

As written.

Emphasis added. If you are in total darkness, then there is no presence of light. As the presence of light does not spoil darkvision, your assertion that the creature must be in total darkness to use his darkvision is contrary to the clear rules as written.

Stand corrected on that point.

It doesn't use nearby shadows to provide concealment - the shadowdancer doesn't need concealment - she can hide while being observed.

What you are describing sounds like blindsense - it would let a creature locate the shadowdancer, but still suffer from not actually being able to see her.

In the case of darkvision you aren't reading in extra words. You are, however, adding extra conditions to the description of HiPS.

You want versimilitude? How about this, the HiPS ability lets the shadowdancer become shadow - thus darkvision sees right through it and her, as if she wasn't there. Now it fits your vision of the fluff text and satisfies the RAW.

The ability meshes fine with the other rules of the game - you are adding to some of the rules and changing how the ability works.

This.

Since rangers have HiPS (Ex), is he using shadowstuff to make him invisible? Answer: no. I know the difference between HiPS (Ex) vs. (Su), but it isn't completely non-magic for one, extreme magic for the other, yet called the same thing.

 

[Empirate]

Then how does it work? There is a necessary verisimilitude to magic for many games, and many gamers... <etc.>

This is true enough. However, it has no bearing whatsoever on a rules discussion. You wanna know how the mechanics of HiPS work at the table? Read the rules, apply them. You wanna know how HiPS works in the gaming world? Make something up, the (game) world is your canvas. Please don't mix the two, the result is never satisfactory IME.

HiPS does not enable the character to go undetected - it enables him to use stealth. Will stealth work while the character is clanging a hammer loudly on his shield and singing out of tune tavern songs, simply because he has HiPS? I'd say no - stealth allows you to be silent and undetected. You are not being silent. If an enemy has hearing so precise your heartbeat is like pounding drums to him, your stealth cannot enable you to avoid detection by that enemy. And if your enemy can see through shadows and darkness, then the use of shadows and darkness to hide is reasonably ruled to be ineffective.

Bull. Sorry to be so direct, but what makes you undetectable when you use Stealth (without HiPS!) is not a lack of clanging a hammer loudly on your shield, nor is it a lack of Darkvision on an enemy's part (with HiPS). What makes you undetectable is the simple fact that your Stealth check beat everybody else's Perception check. The HiPS ability modifies the conditions under which you can use Stealth at all. The darkvision ability modifies your enemy's conditions under which he can use Perception, and how well he can use it.
Clanging a hammer might be an example of ex-post-explanation of why a Stealth check failed really badly. Similarly, the enemy hearing your heartbeat might be an ex-post-explanation of his extremely high roll on Perception, coupled with a good skill mod. But don't turn the whole thing on its head.

Again, my preference is a game with some verisimilitude, where special abilities work for a reason.

Then make something up to fit your bill while staying within the rules. It's not really difficult most of the time (ridiculous TO stuff like the Jumplomancer excepted, of course). But when you do it the other way round, you're not using D&D's ruleset anymore. You're making up houserules based on what you see fit. Which can be fine, but can also needlessly gimp players or playstyles, create imbalance where none existed before, or lead to more complicated adjudicatin down the road. Not that this is necessarily the case, just sayin'.

I read the Shadowdancer as manipulating nearby shadows to provide the concealment required for stealth, consistent with the statement that "they weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception". The same HiPS ability could be explained by bizarre chameleon-like powers that enable the user to blend with his environment (an ability which likely also suffers when the viewer only sees in B&W, but maybe not - orange tigers blend with green foliage when the viewer sees in B&W), or by some quasi-invisibility bending of light around the user. Neither of these, however, seem consistent with the Shadowdancer's description as "A mysterious adventurer who walks the boundaries between the real world and the realm of shadows, and who can command shadows to do her bidding."

You can read the ability whichever way you like. But there's a rules-y way to read it, and that one's pretty clear-cut where the actual game mechanics are concerned. Adding stuff based on fluff is coming up with houserules (and in this case, gimping a not-so-strong class further).

A character is more than a bunch of game mechanics jumbled together with no rhyme or reason. The abilities have a cause and effect. Those should mesh with other rules of the game. Prestige classes, especially, should fit the game world and add to its backdrop. If they're just a set of mechanical attributes with no real tie to the game world, then they don't fit and should be removed from that game.

I repeat, make something up. If you really like a PrC's mechanic but not its fluff, change the fluff and keep the PrC. If a game mechanic has no rhyme or reason, change the rhyme or reason, not the mechanic. Fluff is mutable in a magical world far removed from real-world physics, which moreover makes heavy use of literary and pop culture tropes, and also wants the players to feel like heroes.

As well, nothing in the HiPS descrpition actually says it cannot be used in total darkness.

Nothing says it can. There's no rules for what you can't do when your dead, either. The one principle that all D&D rules are founded upon is that they must positively say what is possible. Everything not mentioned is impossible.

That said, in the case of the HiPS ability I agree with you that an area of total darkness should suffice to use it.

Since rangers have HiPS (Ex), is he using shadowstuff to make him invisible? Answer: no. I know the difference between HiPS (Ex) vs. (Su), but it isn't completely non-magic for one, extreme magic for the other, yet called the same thing.

I have adressed the Ranger HiPS (Ex) ability upthread. The fact that it's called the same as the Shadowdancer ability is bad editing on the designers' part. The two abilities work very differently, with the Shadowdancer version making many stipulations that the Ranger version doesn't. As I said before, a Ranger still needs cover or concealment to hide behind - and if he tries to hide from a creature with darkvision in an area of dim light, he will auto-fail, which the Shadowdancer will not.

 

[Brainwatch]

I think we need to change how were thinking about how HiPS does what it does. HiPS isn't about not being seen, it's about not being noticed. The Shadow Dancer isn't wrapping himself in shadows and disappearing from sight. He's using the shadow to make you not want to notice him. He's still standing right there, if you looked you could see him, with regular vision or dark vision. But he's making it so that even though you can see him, you don't notice him.

HiPS is a Supernatural Ability. It's suppose to warp the rules of reality. And remember it isn't perfect, It's the SD's Stealth vs the others guys Perception. IF the SD wins, the other guys fails to notice him even if he can see him, Dark vision or not. He's not hiding from sight in the Shadow, he's hiding from being noticed in the shadow.

 

[Tharkon]

Being able to hide while being observed does not mean that you are able to hide if there is nowhere you can hide.

Example 1: You're in a forest, there are lots of trees, nobody has seen you yet, you hide behind a tree. Someone arrives and they have to roll to check if they can see you.

Example 2: Now imagine the same scenario, but the person arrives before you think about hiding, they can clearly see you. You can walk up to a tree and hide behind it but they still know exactly where you are.

Example 3: And now the last variation in which case there are no trees at all, no matter what you do here, the other person can see you.

Hide in Plain Sight solves the second scenario, but it doesn't provide you with somewhere to hide if there is no such place.

An area with dim light is a place to hide from most creatures, that's why when within 10 feet of such a place you can hide there when unobserved. A shadowdancer can do so even when observed.
An area with dim light (assuming it's not caused by the darkness spell) does not provide concealment for someone with darkvision. So even though you can hide while being observed, you can't hide there since there is nothing to hide behind.

To summarize, the rules for Stealth (or Hide in 3.5) can be used under the following conditions:
1. You need to be within reach of cover or concealment.
2. You need to not be observed.

Hide in Plain Sight eliminates condition 2 in certain situations (detailed in the ability, varies from class to class), but not condition 1.