Hide in Plain Sight Versus True Seeing

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm on the side of HiPS. True Seeing is trumped by mundane hiding, disguises, smoke, etc. In the case of the Shadowdancer, I've always imagined the HiPS ability as the shadowdancer cloaking himself in the shadows, i.e. for the shadowdancer, shadows are a quasi-physical substance that he can manipulate, like fog or smoke. True Seeing is specifically foiled by fog and fog-like obstructions, so the shadows (manipulated by the shadowdancer's special ability) win.

Put another way, I think True Seeing can see through shadows, and thus normal hiding is thwarted (per the spell description's mention of mundane and magical darkness.) But a shadowdancer hides within the phenomenon that is shadow. He isn't being hidden because he's crouching in an area of darkness, he's being hidden because he's merged with the shadow.

But I may be using House Rules to support my own interpretation of the Shadowdancer...

 

[Patlin]

If you are using a supernatural ability, I don't think it's "mundane" hiding anymore. If hide would apply without supernatural aid, it would trump true seeing. As it is, true seeing wins.

 

[Wrahn]

Okay, thank you for your opinions.

I thought it was pretty cut and dried, but apparently I am incorrect.

Just for reference, my opinion is that the first line of the spell says it all. True Seeing allows you to see things as they truly are. And how things truly are is there is a guy, sans magical concealment, could not be hiding, thus is visible to true seeing.

RangerWickett's interpretation is a little different than the rules read (you only have to 10ft away from a shadow not in it and it doesn't specify size) but I think hiding in the shadows certainly makes things more difficult in the respect to whether it is magical concealment or mundane.

 

[rangerjohn]

I've heard two camps in this discussion. One is Light-based, one is Sight-based.

The Light-based camp says that a shadow is something where light doesn't make a place illuminated.

The Sight-based camp says that a shadow is a place someone can't see because it's dark.

In the light camp, it doesn't matter whether you have low-light vision, darkvision, or normal vision; if something is casting a shadow, or is completely dark because of the absence of light, then it's fair game for the shadowdancer to hide.

In the sight camp, if the person try to look at the shadowdancer can see through an area clearly, then the shadows obviously don't affect them. Thus, a shadowdancer can't hide from a person with darkvision because to the person with darkvision there aren't any shadows.

I prefer the light camp. To me, whether the shadow is there is not dependent upon the viewer, and all Hide in Plain Sight says is that it only works where there are shadows. It doesn't matter if you can see through shadows, because it's not actually shadows that are hiding the shadowdancer. The shadowdancer is "hiding in plain sight." Thus, even if you ought to be able to see him, you can't, because he has the supernatural ability to hide when he shouldn't be able to.

Edit to add: Therefore, true seeing does not negate Hide in Plain Sight. You can still see the person with a successful Spot check, though.

Ah, but thats just it. The spell negates supernatural, but not mundane effects. The supernatural effect is that the hider isn't even in the shadow, so its more akin to invisibilty then hiding. Now where this breaks down, is you can see in normal darkness, with the spell.

 

[Thanee]

IMHO True Seeing clearly trumps (the Shadowdancer's) Hide in Plain Sight, because it is a supernatural ability and therefore magical in nature, and True Seeing is specifically meant to see through magical effects like this.

Hide in Plain Sight is not the simple hiding (against which True Seeing is powerless). The difference to me is, that normally you hide behind some physical object, but Hide in Plain Sight uses shadow magic to "create" such an "object" to hide behind (i.e. hiding one's position with a veil of shadow), and with True Seeing, that "object" doesn't hinder perception in any way, because it is magical and not real as with real hiding, thus the hidden one can be seen as normal.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kelleris]

Hmm... Split 50/50, looks like. I argued that true seeing wouldn't do anything in this case because all it does is see through things, and all Hide in Plain Sight does is let you hide when you normally couldn't. The spell doesn't negate hiding, even under extended situations, so I guess it comes down to a flavor decision (how you interpret the functioning of Hide in Plain Sight).

I've always seen it as supernatural skill at hiding, which would imply that true seeing wouldn't do much since that isn't a case it deals with. If you imagine it as somehow slurping up nearby shadows to form concealment-that-isn't-really-concealment-and-merely-lets-you-hide-without-doing-anything-else-than-concealment-normally-lets-you-do, then true seeing's case is stronger.

As it is, what's going on is that Hide in Plain Sight is doing something to the hide skill, which is in turn what you present to the true seer. True seeing doesn't do anything against hide, which is not in and of itself magical, and I don't think it can "look through" the Hide check to penetrate the Hide in Plain Sight ability. You'll also note that Hide in Plain sight isn't actually providing any concealment. It's always "on", but it doesn't make any difference if the hider is just standing there looking at you instead of using his (nonmagical) hiding talents.

Another way you could flavorize it is as a supernatural affinity for shadows - you are literally one with them in some way. If someone is allowed to look through shadows as though they weren't there, they see through you in some way sufficient to allow you to attempt to Hide. Note that the ability also allows you to hide when people are staring directly at you, watching closely, with no penalty.

 

[Lamoni]

One more vote that True Seeing doesn't trump HiPS. If you gain the hide in plain sight ability, but your hide skill is quite low, it won't matter that you can attempt a hide with no concealment because it will never work. The thing that makes the person hidden is their use of the hide skill, not their use of a supernatural ability. The Su ability just gave them the chance to use the skill. The ability doesn't claim that it provides concealment so there is no concealment to see through. The only thing you are trying to see through is the person's hide skill roll. That is done with a spot roll regardless of whether you have true seeing or not.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works:

Someone hiding normally in shadows is still hidden from True Seeing. Even though the TS sees through the shadows where the person is hiding; it can't see that person, as per the spell description. A spot check is required.

I see HiPS as the supernatural ability to use the Hide skill when it is not otherwise usable. Spot trumps all.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Sejs]

Someone hiding normally in shadows is still hidden from True Seeing. Even though the TS sees through the shadows where the person is hiding; it can't see that person, as per the spell description. A spot check is required.

Actually, no. Someone hiding in shadows - using the concealment granted by a shadowy area to meet the cover/concealment requirements on the use of the hide skill - would be seen by an observer with True Seeing without a spot check.

Those shadows don't grant concealment vs True Seeing because True Seeing lets the recipient see thru normal and magical darkness. Shadows arn't granting concealment vs TS guy = hiding character doesn't meet requirements = hiding character is not hidden to TS guy.

Someone hidden normally using something to grant cover or concealment that isn't darkness (which TS sees thru), or magical in nature (which TS also sees thru) can hide from TS. A rogue hiding behind a tapestry is hidden from TS, unless the TSer makes his normal hide-vs-spot check. A ranger hidden in the tall grass is hidden from TS, unless the TSer makes his normal hide-vs-spot check. A thug just standing in the corner of a poorly lit room is not hidden from TS, because TS sees thru that darkness and the thug isn't hiding behind anything else.

 

[TimSmith]

Actually, no. Someone hiding in shadows - using the concealment granted by a shadowy area to meet the cover/concealment requirements on the use of the hide skill - would be seen by an observer with True Seeing without a spot check.

Those shadows don't grant concealment vs True Seeing because True Seeing lets the recipient see thru normal and magical darkness. Shadows arn't granting concealment vs TS guy = hiding character doesn't meet requirements = hiding character is not hidden to TS guy.

Someone hidden normally using something to grant cover or concealment that isn't darkness (which TS sees thru), or magical in nature (which TS also sees thru) can hide from TS. A rogue hiding behind a tapestry is hidden from TS, unless the TSer makes his normal hide-vs-spot check. A ranger hidden in the tall grass is hidden from TS, unless the TSer makes his normal hide-vs-spot check. A thug just standing in the corner of a poorly lit room is not hidden from TS, because TS sees thru that darkness and the thug isn't hiding behind anything else.

This seems exactly right to me. Shadows are not an actual substance in the way of vision (as fog/mist/water vapour/tapestry etc is)-they are an area where light is not reflecting back to you as well as in other areas. True Seeing specifically allows sight in darkness/absence of light and thus no shadow effects exist to allow the successful use of HIPS vs TS. Also, the only way that HIPS can be used is because it is a SUPERNATURAL ability and without that magical effect the hider could not hide. TS sees through all magical deceptions and thus trumps HIPS.

Another point to consider is that HIPS (as a supernatural ability) cannot function in an anti-magic zone (see p 314 PHB 3.5) either. If HIPS was just a better hide ability, then it would be an "extraordinary" ability and be unaffected by either True Seeing or Anti-magic.