Hide in Plain Sight Versus True Seeing

[Kelleris]

HiPS isn't, strictly speaking, a concealment effect. Also, note that you aren't actually hiding in the requisite shadow. If you're standing in an empty room with a puddle of shadow in the corner, you can hide from someone watching you do it. You don't have to move over to the shadow, and I highly doubt the shadow peels itself off the floor and follows you around. You are in no way actually hiding in the shadow; it's merely required either to put some limit on the ability (crunch) or to represent some kind of supernatural kinship with shadows (flavor).

As I see it, it's akin to the Ex ranger ability, except that it represents a superhuman level of the same sort of skill, hence supernatural.

 

[Thanee]

If HiPS was a superhuman ability to hide, then why doesn't it offer even the slightest advantage in a regular hide situation? Shouldn't the shadowdancer be "better" at regular hiding then, too, if the shadowdancer is sooo good at hiding?

No, I really can't see it at anything else than the magical effect to grant the shadowdancer the necessary requirement to hide and even "vanish" from full view. Even with a Hide skill of +100 this normally isn't possible. And having shadows, where no shadows are (you don't need to move into the shadows in order to hide), simply isn't natural.

The Hide mechanic is used, since it is not perfect (like Invisibility) and thus Spot can still see through the obfuscation, but it's also magical and thus True Seeing does see through it, automatically, since it - as Sejs explained - removes the requirement, which is necessary to be able to hide in the first place.

Anyways...

Of course, it is mostly a flavor-decision. The rules are certainly not clear enough here, so every DM has to decide for him- or herself.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Majere]

HiPS wins.
Here is my logic

True sight does not overcome hiding, it only sees through magical sight imparements.
Hide in plain sight allows you to hide when there are shadows nearby.
You are hiding, and therefore truesight cannot see you.

There is no mechanics for HiPS, it is a very simple effect and Im never sure why people get so confused, I think people try too hard to explain why it works. Noone tries to explain how a fireall works, they just read the rules and apply them, and the same should be done with HiPS.

Namely:
To hide you need comething to hide behind, (cover) if you do not have cover you cannot make a hide attempt. You also need to be unobserved or make a bluff check to distract your target.
HiPS is a supernatural ability allowing you to use shadows as cover, and to hide even while being observed.

Thats it
No warping shadows , no magical fog weaving.
It just acts as a requirement for using the skill.

That in the RAW a shadowdancer (or ranger) is hiding, and truesight clearly states in its text that it cannot see hidden creatures.

Majere

 

[Synchronicity]

I have to say I come down on the side of Hide in Plain Sight. If you consider True Seeing, it pierces Invisibility, any illusion which is cloaking you, magical darkness, and so on. However, these effects work in a simple way; they say 'When I am under this effect, you can't see me unless you possess X Y Z, which trumps this effect.' Hide in Plain Sight works in a different way: it gives you the opportunity to make a skill check in an unusual circumstance; a circumstance in which you would be otherwise unable to make the check. it does not allow you to just disappear, undetectable save under certain conditions; it allows you to make a check. I feel that since Hide in Plain Sight is an ability which facilitates an unusual use of your natural Hide skill rather than actually concealing you, True Seeing does not apply to it.

The waters of this argument are further muddied by the Ranger ability of Hide in Plain Sight, which is (Ex) rather than (Su) and is the same as the Shadowdancer's ability, but split into two abilities, Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage.

Ranger:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Shadowdancer:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.


I am curious whether it is the fact of the hiding or the Supernatural nature of it which is causing this argument; do people believe True Seeing should defeat the Ranger's Extraordinary ability to Hide in Plain Sight, or is it the wording on the Shadowdancer's ability which is concerning them? At any rate, I will reiterate my point; I believe that Hide in Plain Sight is an ability to facilitate hiding rather than an ability which magically conceals you without effort on your part, and so True Seeing should not counteract it, though the person utilising True Seeing is allowed a Spot check as normal.

Just my 2 cents.
Synchronicity.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Perhaps some folk are forgetting the nature of Su abilities:

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical...

and the spell:

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness...True Seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding...

Any sort of mundane hiding using cover (sicne the viewer sees through normal and magical darkness) would be successful. HiPS however is NOT mundane hiding, nor is the ability making use of cover, it is a magical ability that the spell true seeing can see through.

So from a HiPS is a magical ability to hide argument, True Seeing kills it.

From the standpoint that HiPS mearly confers the ability to hide normally, True Seeing kills it again as the "viewer can see through normal and magical darkness" which negates the ability to hide from the viewer if the shadow dancer tries to hide using concealment from darkness.

Either way you try to argue it, True Seeing still trumps HiPS.

 

[Majere]

Liquidsaber, your not reading the text correctly:

"You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. "

HiPS is not magical darkness.
HiPS is not normal darkness.
HiPS is not a secrect door hidden by magic.
HiPS is not blur,displacement,invisibility or an illusion.
HiPS is not polymorph/ a change or a transmutation.

True sight lists VERY SPECIFICALLY what it see through.
HiPS is not on that list.
Thus True sight does not see HiPS.

In the same way, darkvision doesnt "defeat" HiPS, the ability to see in the dark is irrelevant.

Majere

 

[Liquidsabre]

HiPS is also NOT mundane hiding and so doesn't fool True Seeing.

The spell also clearly states what *does* fool the spell and HiPS is not on there...lol we could do this forever if you wanna play that game.

 

[Deset Gled]

I side with HiPS. Other people have stated my reasons, but I will agree that this is a fairly ambiguous case, as it really depends on how you think HiPS works (which I feel is pretty simple, but I've seen enough arguements about it to know that it isn't). That being said, I think it might be time to analyze this problem from a balance perspective.

HiPS uses the hiding mechanic. Generally speaking, it is easy for a character to have hide bonuses that are really darn high. There's armor enchantments that add to it, wondrous items to raise Dex, spells, etc, that all add up pretty quickly. Hide is countered by a spot check, which is actually fairly hard to raise. There are few magic items (eagle eyes, robe of eyes) that aid spot, and they aren't seen often. There are no spells that add to spot that I know of (and none that outright trump it), and it's a cross class skill for most classes. Hide is, however, trumped outright by blindsense and tremorsense. These abilities are easy to come by in creatures, but are not granted by any core spells or items. The bottom line: it can be easy for mosters to find someone that's good at hiding, but it's practically impossible for PCs to do so. This is something that I came to realize quickly when I played 15th level Assassin that relied heavily on HiPS.

TS is a (mostly) 6th level spell with a pretty short duration and a material component cost of 250 gp. It can be used starting at 9th level as a cleric, 11th for a wizard (HiPS is available ot level 8 for a Shadowmaster, 13 for an assassin, and 17 for a ranger). It would become very heavy on resources to use it often, even though HiPS can be used unlimited times a day. There are items that can grant this spell at will, but they cost a lot (75000 for a gem of seeing, 80000 for a crytal ball).

Considering this information, I think that balance dictates that TS should trump HiPS. Without it, I don't think that any PC (or humanoid NPC) would be at all safe from someone with HiPS (my afformentioned Assassin could probably have killed most other PCs in the party, or a highly guarded king, with little effort) . Using TS to stop someone with HiPS is still a fairly expensive countermeasure, and will not be seen often enough for HiPS to have it's usefullness lessened.

Just my 2 cents. I don't even agree with it from a rules standpoint, but from a balance perspective it seems kinda one sided.

 

[Thanee]

There are no spells that add to spot that I know of.

Well there's Eyes of the Avoral in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Deset Gled]

Well there's Eyes of the Avoral in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Good find. Perhaps I should change that to say "There are no core spells that add to spot that I know of." I'm pretty sure there are also non-core items that grant blindsight or tremorsense as well (I'm pretty sure there was a thread about boots granting the latter not too long ago). Maybe even PrCs that do (in core, Horizon Walker is the only PrC that can grant tremorsense). In any case, consider my above post to be relative only to core material (though I think the conclusion still holds true for non-core stuff).