Hide in Plain Sight Versus True Seeing

[Altamont Ravenard]

Just in case this thread turns into a democratic determination of True Seeing vs. Hide in Plain Sight, I'd like to cast my vote as:

TS > HiPS.

AR

 

[Scion]

There are several psionic abilities that can grant bonus to spot, in case it matters.

There is also moment of prescience, it can grant an impressive bonus to a spot check.

For myself though, I'd rule that hide in plain sight beats true seeing. Hide in plain sight simply extends the rules on where one is able to hide, hiding beats true seeing. Done.

 

[Majere]

HiPS is also NOT mundane hiding and so doesn't fool True Seeing.

Actually, HiPS IS mundane hiding.
HiPS is a (SU) ability that allows you to make a hide check when normally you couldnt. The hiding itsself is a normall hide check; a skill check opposed by spot.
The only thing strange is that a (SU) power extends when you could use that skill, in the same way there are (ex) abilities that allow you to take 10 when you normally cant. The actual hide mechanic is unchanged, you are "hiding normally" in an abnormal situation.

This would be similar to the natural spell feat. The spell itself is still a "normal" spell, just cast in an abnormal situation.

Majere

 

[TimSmith]

The waters of this argument are further muddied by the Ranger ability of Hide in Plain Sight, which is (Ex) rather than (Su) and is the same as the Shadowdancer's ability, but split into two abilities, Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage.

Ranger:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Shadowdancer:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.


I am curious whether it is the fact of the hiding or the Supernatural nature of it which is causing this argument; do people believe True Seeing should defeat the Ranger's Extraordinary ability to Hide in Plain Sight, or is it the wording on the Shadowdancer's ability which is concerning them?

Synchronicity.

Interesting comparison. For me it is the very distinction between (su) and (ex) which matters. The implication being that the shadowdancer is using a magical affinity to shadows and an ability to become one with them/weave them/whatever whereas the ranger is just amazingly good at hiding using his natural abilities in affinity with the outdoors environment. Because the dancer's HIPS is supernatural, it can be defeated by TS (as anti-magic will also destroy its operation-PHB p 314 specifically states this). However, the ranger can still HIPS in wilderness terrain even if covered by an anti-magic field as his skill is (ex).

Many are saying that HIPS for the dancer is just being good at hiding, but if this were the case, anti-magic could not defeat the ability (and it would be ex rather than su).

 

[Thanee]

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Those two do not stack, however.

Camouflage doesn't lift the limitation on the ranger's HiPS ability.

A 13th level ranger still cannot vanish from view without anything to hide behind. It's just an extraordinarily good skill, not a supernatural ability.

I am curious whether it is the fact of the hiding or the Supernatural nature of it which is causing this argument; do people believe True Seeing should defeat the Ranger's Extraordinary ability to Hide in Plain Sight, or is it the wording on the Shadowdancer's ability which is concerning them?

Here's a highlight of the important differences, which lead to my opinion:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lamoni]

The best argument I can see for why True Seeing would trump HiPS is that it removes the shadow. Since there is no shadow, the person can't attempt a hide, and therefore the hide is invalid.

I am almost swayed by this argument. The points about it being Su vs Ex don't make any difference because it is just overcoming the ability to make the hide and True Seeing overcomes natural darkness just as well as it overcomes magical darkness.

However, if the above argument holds true, then it would also be true that a shadowdancer couldn't hide from someone with darkvision since for that person, there would be no shadows close enough. And since the conditions for the hide attempt were trumped, no more need for a spot check. Note of interest... neither true seeing NOR darkvision actually eliminates the shadows... they are just able to see through them.

So... my position is still that True Seeing shouldn't affect HiPS at all. But, it would make sense to me if you wanted to rule that it DID overcome it as long as darkvision also overcomes it.

Those are my two cents. You can rule it however you want.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Because the dancer's HIPS is supernatural, it can be defeated by TS (as anti-magic will also destroy its operation-PHB p 314 specifically states this). However, the ranger can still HIPS in wilderness terrain even if covered by an anti-magic field as his skill is (ex).

This is actually why I believe HiPS > TS. Note that an Antimagic Field disables all (Su) abilities within its area. So the HiPS ability is disabled, because it's an (Su) ability wthin the area of Antimagic Field.

But True Seeing does not disable all (Su) abilities in its area. It negates the concealment granted by magical and mundane darkness.

HiPS is not magical darkness.
HiPS is not normal darkness.
HiPS is not a secrect door hidden by magic.
HiPS is not blur,displacement,invisibility or an illusion.
HiPS is not polymorph/ a change or a transmutation.

There's nothing in the True Seeing spell description about it negating any (Su) ability that deceives the viewer. HiPS is still effective.

 

[Chasmodai]

Like some have said, HiPS is not some sort of 'magical' hiding. As it is written, its a near-magical ability to hide even when you aren't allowed (by the rules) to do so. Imagine Batman and Spiderman doing their fast fade-aways. One second they're there, the next they're not.

I'd say HiPS would trump TS, unless of course the TSer makes the Spot check (whatever magical bonuses the hider gets is negated by TS). If you were on the side of TS however, I'd say the hider must once more abide by the rules of normal hiding (distraction, taking cover) to be able to roll his hide check.

So a person with TS doesn't automatically get to see someone hiding with HiPS, he still must make his Spot check vs. the Hide check. And, depending on your interpretation, the hider can no longer use his HiPS ability to hide practically whenever or wherever he wanted.



Hypothetical situation: The TSer is carrying a torch and casts a shadow behind him. The hider runs towards the TSer, tumbles behind him and hides in the TSer's shadow. Does TS still trump in this case?

 

[Saeviomagy]

I am almost swayed by this argument. The points about it being Su vs Ex don't make any difference because it is just overcoming the ability to make the hide and True Seeing overcomes natural darkness just as well as it overcomes magical darkness.

So... my position is still that True Seeing shouldn't affect HiPS at all. But, it would make sense to me if you wanted to rule that it DID overcome it as long as darkvision also overcomes it.

That would be my ruling. The shadow-based HiPS is negated by anything that renders the shadows irrelevant, just like hiding in the shadows themselves would be.

 

[Abraxas]

I'm in the HiPS trumps TS camp.

Its irrelevant whether or not the person looking can ignore shadows. You can't get any less concealed than plain sight, being able to see through the shadows (regardless of how you managed to see through them) doesn't change this.