Hiding

[taliesin15]

on the taking 10/20 thread Transit wrote:
You can't attempt a hide check before an observer is present

surely this is wrong...if not, I've been letting Rogues and Rangers scout ahead while attempting to Hide and Move Silently irregardless of whether observers are present...have I been DMing this wrong?

which begs another question: if there are (unbeknownst to anyone, for all they know) no observers present (presumably I guess), why can't the PCs playing the Rogue or Ranger simply say they want to take a 10/20 on Hiding and Moving Silent as they scout ahead?

 

[Thanee]

Well, of course you can hide... you just do not really need to make the check before it is actually needed for something.

As a DM calling for Hide checks even when they are not needed, is still a good idea, though, simply to not alarm the players that something is actually there, when one of those checks is actually needed.

As for taking 10, you should be able to do that with Hide as normal (not in combat or other stressful situations).

As for taking 20, you cannot do that, because there is no simple threshold at which you are successful. Taking 20 basically assumes, that you try (and fail) in a task so long until you finally succeed with it (trial and error). It's based on the assumption that eventually you will get your best possible result and if there are no consequences for failure, then you can try and try and try until you get there. Doing that with Hide would be rather silly, though. You just hide and either you are seen or not, there is no retrying, and thus no taking 20.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vegepygmy]

You can't attempt a hide check before an observer is present

surely this is wrong...

How can you resolve an opposed check if there's no opponent to roll against you?

 

[Nyeshet]

"an Observer present" means, I think, that someone is watching you. If an NPC is watching the PC, then any attempt to hide will be worthless, as the NPC already knows where he is. If someone is present but not observing the PC, then the PC can attempt a Hide check as normal.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure about taking ten in this example. Doesn't taking ten take tenfold as long as normal? That would be more along the lines of concealing an object or one's self before another happens by and looks around. If an NPC is near and a PC wants to take ten, I'd probably allow it, but I'd consider granting the NPC a 'take ten' on their opposed check - simply because they were within potential viewing of the PC for ten rounds - a full minute. That's a lot of time to work on hiding yourself with another nearby who is potentially able to spot you while you work on your concealment.

 

[Thanee]

Doesn't taking ten take tenfold as long as normal?

Nope. It's common to mix-up Take 10 and Take 20 in this fashion, though.

Take 20 increases the time (basically assuming trial & error with multiple approaches, until you roll a 20).

Take 10 is just a single check with the normal time needed. You cannot do it when you are rushed, it's just your average result, something you can always achieve, if you are not in a stressful situation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nyeshet]

Thanks for the clearup

Somehow I had always viewed both as taking more time. Take 20 taking twentyfold normal time due to multiple 'trial and error' attempts, and Take 10 taking tenfold normal time due to slowly and carefully working your way through the problem.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

How can you resolve an opposed check if there's no opponent to roll against you?

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound? According to the laws of physics, it most certainly does. Just because there is currently no one to hide from does not mean that you cannot hide. You make the check, and when someone comes around to oppose it, they make their attempt. At least this is how I have seen DM's handle it, both for the PC's and for critters, make the check when the action is taken. Makes sense to me.

And on Hiding and taking 20, while Thanee has a point, by sheer technicality you can take 20 on a Hide check. I have always looked at this as taking 2 minutes (assuming you have it) to assess your surroundings, to find the best position, background colors, etc... to find the very best hiding spot.

 

[Thanee]

Somehow I had always viewed both as taking more time. Take 20 taking twentyfold normal time due to multiple 'trial and error' attempts, and Take 10 taking tenfold normal time due to slowly and carefully working your way through the problem.

Yep, it's an easy and intuitive line of thinking... Take 10 gives a guaranteed result... you get that by doing the task carefully... which implies slow. That's not what Take 10 is about, though.

Take 10 is there to allow you to succeed in routine tasks automatically.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

Take 10 is there to allow you to succeed in routine tasks automatically.

Exactly.