[High level monsters and powers] What can Graz'zt actually do?

What, mechanically, gives you the feeling of "kobolds as a culture" in 4e?

Because the kobold's powers in the MM will naturally lead to a specific style of combat, which informs the culture they come from.

Skirmishers gain a bonus to attacks per kobold ally adjacent to the target.

Slingers have special ammunition.

Dragonshields can move to harass opponents.

Wyrmpriests (who are Leaders) serve dragons.

Slyblades (the most powerful kobolds) are good with traps and use their allies as shields.

I think that suggests a lot about kobold culture, if one should choose to infer such things.

In 4e, I can just say "This is a kobold ass-whooper" and give him a 20 strength.

No reason you couldn't do that in any other edition of the game. Though "Gauntlets of Kobold Ass-Whooper Strength" might be a little off.
 

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Because the kobold's powers in the MM will naturally lead to a specific style of combat, which informs the culture they come from.

Whereas, in 3e, the kobolds racial attributes (small size, low strength, high charisma) lead to specific combat roles that maximize their strengths and minimize their weakness.

In 4e, you can begin with the idea of "I want a small, sneaky, race which focuses on ranged attacks", and then build some monsters which model this -- but there's nothing in the mechanics which enforce the concept. A kobold has a high AC because of his role as Artillery or Skirmish, not because he has a high dex -- I can decide, for some reason, that a particular kobold has a Dex of 4, and it will not 'bubble up' to his combat stats; they remain fixed unless I manually change them. Really, the only reason monsters in 4e even HAVE stats is so you can figure out their untrained skill checks; for the majority of combats, the stat line might as well not exist.

I prefer a more organic, more intricate approach. With 4e, I need to make sure to shape every part of the monster by hand, after the initial work is done; if I want it to have a better AC, I raise it, and if I want to justify that somehow, I have to decide what the cause is -- does it wear more armor? Does it have a higher dex? Is it a mutant with thick hide? Contrariwise, in 3e, if I want it to have a higher AC, I buy it armor, or raise its dex, or give it Dodge, or whatever.

4e: Start with combat stats. Justify them if you want to; you don't need to.
3e: Build a character. See what kind of numbers you get.

Which is "better" depends on your mood and goals. I enjoy the 3e approach because you can discover things about the world by seeing the consequences of racial traits.

(The NPC rules in 4e seem to take a half-step in this direction, but it's been explicitly stated they weren't used to build the monsters and that there are no fixed or absolute racial traits -- you can have non-shifty kobolds, for example.)
 

In 4e, you can begin with the idea of "I want a small, sneaky, race which focuses on ranged attacks", and then build some monsters which model this -- but there's nothing in the mechanics which enforce the concept.

I think you bring up some interesting points, especially this; I'll return to it when I have the chance to think (clearly) about it.
 

I don't see this as just being about simulationism. It's about not really taking into account the contributions of the players to the plot in other than superficial ways ("do you want to win the battle using your axe, or using your sword?").
Wow. This sounds rather bitter and petty. Different games allow different amounts of player contribution to the plot. The default assumption in 4e is that the DM comes up with the plot, the players play through it, but at certain points along the way, they'll come to "Decision Points" which let them affect the outcome of the plot.

For instance, the DM decides in advance that the forces of the Evil Archmage will attack the town the PCs arrive in. After the battle the PCs will be approached by the Mayor who asks them to figure out who is behind the attack and to stop them. At this point the PCs decide which way they will go, how they will figure out who the attackers were and so on. Their skills will affect how fast they find the information, what information exactly they do find, and so on.

That's the default assumption. Some people don't like that and allow PCs way more control over their plots. That's fine.

If you are talking about games where the PCs get to walk into a town, kick the drunk off his chair and decide to make him run for office and become the puppet mayor for them not knowing that the town is already ruled by an illithid with a disguise spell up....yeah, that's a completely different sort of game than the default assumption of 4e.

4e assumes more of an interactive novel than a blank 3d space filled with programmed objects waiting for the players to run around in. Some of the goals of the plot oriented, DM controlled game are not compatible with giving your players the power to go wherever they want and do whatever they want.

If you know the mechanics of Orcus' gate spell, for example, you can fairly judge the player's various attempts to close it (or respond to the uses of the Arcana skill) and define it's limitations rather than just arbitrarily decide based on some plot agenda. Combat and Skill Challenges are handled this way already. Why do monsters even have stat blocks? Why doesn't the DM just decide when they die rather than having to track hitpoints and 5-foot steps? The DM following certain rules behind the scenes isn't alien to DnD. In fact, it seems to me to be a central part of 4E. Still.
Because there are 2 parts to a game: Story and Game. The game portion is interactive. Your players roll dice to determine the outcome. The story part is not.

Also, why is a plot agenda unfair? I find a game much more fun as a player when it goes like this:

Portal appears in the middle of town, undead swarm the town, the PCs save some people but are forced to flee by the overwhelming number. They decide to go to the capital where they search for any information on what this portal might be and how to close it. They find a cleric at a temple who identifies it as a portal to the realm of Orcus. He knows of a Ritual to close it, but it requires 3 rare spell components to complete. They go on a series of adventures to track down the items. During their adventures, they are attacked by minions of a powerful priest of Orcus who wants to stop them, they eventually find all the components and proceed to the portal. There, they meet the priest of Orcus who has gathered to stop them personally. They defeat him. They do the ritual, only it doesn't close the portal. They hear laughing from inside the portal and Orcus himself comes to crush them. They defeat him, and with his last breath, he is sucked into the portal which closes behind him. The world is safe.

Rather than:

A portal appears in the middle of town, undead start coming out and a PC announces, "I use Close Portal, it is a spell from the book. It closes any portal. This is a portal, it should work." And the DM says, "It doesn't work on this portal." The player says, "What? Aren't we playing by the same rules here? You are going to tell me the rules don't apply to this portal? That's stupid." The DM says, "Fine. It closes the portal. The world is safe. The game is over."

One is a result of following the rules whether the plot works or not.

The whole point of Skill Challenges was to provide a more mechanics-based system for resolving events. Saying "it's not used in combat, so I can just make up the results based on plot considerations" could be used for PCs Diplomacy with the King as well. But really, if you're a story teller and you want to follow plot considerations instead of following rules then why are you getting involved in rules discussions anyway? Who cares what the rules decide to cover - just ignore them as you do anyway.
Because a game with no choice and no randomness would be no fun at all for the players. You want them to have fun. Most of the random chance in games is heavily slanted in favor of making things come out the way you want it to anyways. The combat rules give the overwhelming advantage to the PCs, so they'll win almost every time. The new skill challenge rules mean the PCs win a skill challenge the vast majority of the time.

I decide what NPCs due based on the whims of the plot all the time. Nothing in the Diplomacy skill ever says "By rolling high, an NPC will agree to whatever you want. By rolling low, he'll immediately disagree." I often decide that "despite your poor roll the King agrees" or "despite your good roll, he isn't convinced".

I, as a DM, treat the game as 2 different games with 2 different sets of rules. When it is combat or skill challenge time, whatever happens happens. Follow the rules exactly as written. It'll be a fair decider of whether you succeed or fail at your task. When it is plot time, I will accept input from the players and try to take their actions into account, but I will not allow their decisions to simply override everything I want to happen. They certainly might get bonuses and benefits. I might decide to modify things if they give me an idea that is better than what I originally thought of. But, if I've decided that the only way to close the portal is to kill Orcus at the end of the adventure, nothing they do is going to change that.

However, if your players are under the impression that you should be following the rules, and that's the reason that additional rules cause you heartburn (because they'll call you on them), then I think you have bigger problems. The solution IMO would begin by being honest with your players about what kind of game you want to run and outline which types of rules, if any, you intend to follow.

Why is this a problem? I expect everyone playing any game to follow the rules. That's the point of playing a game. I certainly expect my DM to follow the rules. I expect the DM to make up fair and fun rules when there aren't some available. I think rules directly related to combat should be adhered to. That's when it is the most "game-like" to me. In the same way that I'd want everyone in a monopoly game to play by the same rules, I'd probably bring it up if a DM just randomly broke them. But, I give leeway for there to be sections of the game outside of the rules. I don't have a problem with a monster having a power I can't get. That's part of the rules. I don't have a problem with there being exceptions to rules. Like a specific portal that has different properties than most portals and so on.
 

it will not 'bubble up' to his combat stats; they remain fixed unless I manually change them.
Actually, in the "creating monsters" or "making monsters" section of the DMG, it mentions that custom monsters' stats have a certain baseline, and above or below average ability scores change the monsters' stats by plus or minus one. (I'm Away From Book, but I know it's in the DM's Toolbox section.)

In the same way that 3.5 NPC creation encouraged racial stereotypes, it was very limiting. A kobold in 3.5 would never make for a terribly great Dragon Shaman - they have no bonus to Charisma, and a penalty to Constitution. When their breath weapon is on cooldown, they'll be resorting to crossbows, due to their extremely low strength. In 4e, I just build an NPC by either the monster creation methods, or by the NPC creation methods, and the creature will be able to perform its job. If I want to create a big, buff kobold, I will either provide story justification for it and an interesting place in the ecology, or my players will laugh at it and ask if I'm joking... and hell, if we're playing a joke game, why not?

This isn't quite the same thing as where you can have, say, a very low-hitpoints fey creature with spell resistance and lots of attacks that has the same CR as a tons-of-hp animal with mediocre attacks. Nothing you create, if you follow the rules strictly, will differ greatly in stats from the baseline. However, you achieve a similar effect by having a fey lurker or artillery monster and an animal Brute. These closer-to-baseline monsters, however, will present a similar challenge to any party, whereas fragile, magical, spell resistant monsters in 3.5 were awesome against some parties, and tissue paper against others.

As far as the spells go, I agree with Majoru. If I use Gate, my players will yawn, Spellcraft it, and buy a scroll to solve the problem. When I was a rules-following DM, I was constantly poring over splatbooks to find monsters, classes, templates and spell effects that would keep things interesting. I quickly burned out that way, actually.
 

Actually, in the "creating monsters" or "making monsters" section of the DMG, it mentions that custom monsters' stats have a certain baseline, and above or below average ability scores change the monsters' stats by plus or minus one. (I'm Away From Book, but I know it's in the DM's Toolbox section.)

I dimly recall that; however, the baseline stats are based on level/role, not species; a kobold soldier of X level and an ogre soldier of X level have the same base Str; it's up to you to make the changes to make it "feel" like a kobold (or an ogre).

In the same way that 3.5 NPC creation encouraged racial stereotypes, it was very limiting. A kobold in 3.5 would never make for a terribly great Dragon Shaman - they have no bonus to Charisma, and a penalty to Constitution. When their breath weapon is on cooldown, they'll be resorting to crossbows, due to their extremely low strength. In 4e, I just build an NPC by either the monster creation methods, or by the NPC creation methods, and the creature will be able to perform its job. If I want to create a big, buff kobold, I will either provide story justification for it and an interesting place in the ecology, or my players will laugh at it and ask if I'm joking... and hell, if we're playing a joke game, why not?

And in 3.5, you can declare that the uber-kobold rolled straight 18s. :)


These closer-to-baseline monsters, however, will present a similar challenge to any party, whereas fragile, magical, spell resistant monsters in 3.5 were awesome against some parties, and tissue paper against others.

I see both sides of this. From one perspective, it's annoying that a monster's "true" CR is based heavily on group composition. From another, it makes the world seem much more real -- and thus more involving -- if a group is strong in some areas and weak in others. The idea of having to know your own strengths and weaknesses, research likely foes, and make preparations for battle appeals to me. 4e's perfect balance (assuming a party with all four roles filled) means you never have to "prep" for an encounter; if everyone is playing by the rules, you will be equally good against all level-appropriate foes. Resistances/immunities/weaknesses are fairly minor in 4e, at least from what I've seen so far; if you don't have "just the right spell/weapon/whatever"... meh. The fight lasts one round longer.
 

So I've been thinking about this, and I don't get it.

In 4e, you can begin with the idea of "I want a small, sneaky, race which focuses on ranged attacks", and then build some monsters which model this -- but there's nothing in the mechanics which enforce the concept. A kobold has a high AC because of his role as Artillery or Skirmish, not because he has a high dex -- I can decide, for some reason, that a particular kobold has a Dex of 4, and it will not 'bubble up' to his combat stats; they remain fixed unless I manually change them. Really, the only reason monsters in 4e even HAVE stats is so you can figure out their untrained skill checks; for the majority of combats, the stat line might as well not exist.

The bolded part had me confused. "Of course the mechanics enforce the concept!" I thought. "What says small, sneaky, ranged-attacking race other than Lurkers and Skirmishers with Stealth, low Str, and ranged powers?"

But that's not what you mean, is it? You mean something like, "We don't do it the 3E way - build the monster from its Stats first and then see what kind of roles it fits; we figure out what its role in the game is first and see what it needs to be."

Though I don't see why you couldn't figure out what it's place in the game world is first, assign a level, and then use the mechanics to enforce your concept. I guess that's what I'm looking at - the level of the monster enforces a lot of stuff.

(Stats affect Defenses if they are higher or lower than the average for that level; otherwise, they don't.)

4e: Start with combat stats. Justify them if you want to; you don't need to.
3e: Build a character. See what kind of numbers you get.

In both cases I think you start off with a character. I don't see the difference.
 

The thing that confused me, is not that there isn't any NPC rituals, but that there's one but not more: there's a ritual to become a Lich in the Monster Manual, and it's obviously not intended for players (since there's no rules on how to actually give a player a template)

Why arent there more of those?
 

The thing that confused me, is not that there isn't any NPC rituals, but that there's one but not more: there's a ritual to become a Lich in the Monster Manual, and it's obviously not intended for players (since there's no rules on how to actually give a player a template)

Why arent there more of those?

Space limits, probably.
 

Anyway... I think the gist of it is that the answer of "What can X do outside of combat: Anything the DM wants" doesn't work for people since X can be a kobold or a demon lord and they clearly should have different answers!

This seems contradictory to me. You're then DM. If you want kobolds and demons to have access to different noncombat abilities, you can do that. That's the definition of "anything the DM wants". Are you upset because someone out there DMing the game could have demons and kobolds with with the same abilities?

Though I don't see why you couldn't figure out what it's place in the game world is first, assign a level, and then use the mechanics to enforce your concept. I guess that's what I'm looking at - the level of the monster enforces a lot of stuff.
[...]
In both cases I think you start off with a character. I don't see the difference.

I guess you could do that in 3e, but it takes a lot more mastery of the rules to do so. If you don't have much experience DMing, how do you know what kind of stats should a CR 8 have? Don't the 3e monster-making rules have you design the monster, then assign a CR? I think most DMs are going to get frustrated and give up, rather than make an intuitive leap to "Maybe I should do this in the exact opposite order."
 

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