High Level Rogues

[Somebloke]

As a big skillmonkey lover, I was wondering if anyone has played with a high-level rogue yet for pathfinder...I found my last 3.5 campaign frustrating in that by level 9 the rogue began to lose his 'edge', with the attack bonus 'penalties' (compared to the fighter) and the magic-users making his skill monkey status redundant.

I am optimistic that pathfinder has addressed or at least mitigated these problems, but a little confirmation would help- has anyone played a rogue at high levels? What was the gaming experience like?

 

[Jadeite]

As a big skillmonkey lover, I was wondering if anyone has played with a high-level rogue yet for pathfinder...I found my last 3.5 campaign frustrating in that by level 9 the rogue began to lose his 'edge', with the attack bonus 'penalties' (compared to the fighter) and the magic-users making his skill monkey status redundant.

I am optimistic that pathfinder has addressed or at least mitigated these problems, but a little confirmation would help- has anyone played a rogue at high levels? What was the gaming experience like?

Fighers get an even greater bonus on attack rolls than they did in 3.5 (in Pathfinder, a fighter 20 has 10 points more of attack bonus than a rogue 20). Also, Pathfinder Bards are superior skill monkeys.
On the bright side, rogues get to apply sneak damage to a lot more opponents now and make a rather good choice for multiclassed characters.
Also, both CR 10+ creatures known at this moment (the elder fire elemental and the crag linnorm) have an AC below 30, so rogues shoul have a somehow greater chance of actually hitting (the crag linnorm has a flat-footed AC of 25, the elder fire elemental has one of 16, but is immun to critical hits) .

 

[Celtavian]

re

A 20th level rogue looks downright scary.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The additional rogue talents gained at every even level, from 2nd level on, adds a lot with the ability to select a combat feat or a rogue special ability. If wanting to go combat rogue this helps a lot in keeping up with the fellow front-liners being able to invest in both defensive feats (dodge, combat expertise, two weapon defense) AND offensive feats (weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, weapon focus). Thankfully, the rogue will never need to hit every single time to keep up with other melee due to their high damage output.

Though the Rogue in Pathfinder is beefier, I have to admit, we've never seen the rogue do anything but be a great skill monkey, have good mobility, highly sneaky, and murder things back in 3.5e.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, I just noticed that level 19 bards can take 10 on any skill, even untrained ones, while the poor rogue's still stuck with Skill Mastery (which is a good class feature, don't take this the wrong way). I'm going to have to remove that ability from Bards, WAY too much toe-crunching, and totally unneeded. Bards get an inspire courage boost at level 19 already anyway.

 

[pawsplay]

Wow, I just noticed that level 19 bards can take 10 on any skill, even untrained ones, while the poor rogue's still stuck with Skill Mastery (which is a good class feature, don't take this the wrong way). I'm going to have to remove that ability from Bards, WAY too much toe-crunching, and totally unneeded. Bards get an inspire courage boost at level 19 already anyway.

Well, who's toes are we talking about, anyway? The rogue is sneaky-stabby, it's the bard that is more skill-based. Anyway, being able to take 10 on a skill you have no ranks in is... not that helpful?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

But they can take 10 on every single skill. A rogue only gets 3 +int mod. And since when is the bard more skill monkey than Rogue? In 3.0, Bard only got 4+int skills, which was too low, so they increased it to 6+, as it remains in pathfinder. Rogues have always had 8+ and a larger list. Even with the jack of all trades and knowledge bonuses, it doesn't seem very obvious to me that bards are supposed to be better than rogues at skills, compared to how clerics ARE better than druids at healing.

And again, the most vexing thing is, they don't even need it. Jack of All trades already gives two other cool benefits, and taking away the level 19 ability still wouldn't leave them with a dead level.

 

[pawsplay]

But they can take 10 on every single skill. A rogue only gets 3 +int mod. And since when is the bard more skill monkey than Rogue?

In 3.0, Bard only got 4+int skills, which was too low, so they increased it to 6+, as it remains in pathfinder. Rogues have always had 8+ and a larger list. Even with the jack of all trades and knowledge bonuses, it doesn't seem very obvious to me that bards are supposed to be better than rogues at skills, compared to how clerics ARE better than druids at healing.

Since AD&D 1e, when they were fighter/rogue/specialist druids. Since AD&D 2e, when they were able to get a new musical instrument for every additional NPW sunk into performance, on top of having a few rogue skills. I don't know what the deal was in 3.0, but in 3.5 they had 6 skills points/level and all Knowledge skills.

In PF, several Rogue skills have been consolidated. Meanwhile, they get Versatile Performance, allowing them to double or triple up on numerous skills. In PF, rogues are all about stealth, rogue talents, and sneak attack. Bards the skill specialists.

And again, the most vexing thing is, they don't even need it. Jack of All trades already gives two other cool benefits, and taking away the level 19 ability still wouldn't leave them with a dead level.

Ok, so what, someone is going to have less fun as a rogue because at 19th level, the party bard can take 10 on more skills than him?

 

[Somebloke]

The thing is I know what the class looks like on paper. Does anyone have any actual gaming experience? I'm playing the statted character from the setting at 3rd level and she's a blast, but I worry about the playability at higher levels.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Since AD&D 1e, when they were fighter/rogue/specialist druids. Since AD&D 2e, when they were able to get a new musical instrument for every additional NPW sunk into performance, on top of having a few rogue skills. I don't know what the deal was in 3.0, but in 3.5 they had 6 skills points/level and all Knowledge skills.

In PF, several Rogue skills have been consolidated. Meanwhile, they get Versatile Performance, allowing them to double or triple up on numerous skills. In PF, rogues are all about stealth, rogue talents, and sneak attack. Bards the skill specialists.

I agree. I always looked at the 8+ Rogue skill points as necessary for them to be able to do the sneaky/trapfinding/lock opening things Rogues were supposed to do for the party (especially back when they separated out move silently, hide, etc.). Bards were the skill monkeys . . . designed as a jack of all trades.