High-level spellcasters and item creation

[Staffan]

One weird thing struck me today, and it was not a phasm. Apparently, a high-level spellcaster's time isn't worth more than an apprentice's, at least not when making items. Let's compare two situations:

3rd level druid making a cloak of resistance +1:
Market price: 1,000 gp.
Component cost: 500 gp.
Net profit: 500 gp.
Time to create: 1 day.
Daily "wage": 500 gp.

15th level druid making an amulet of mighty fists +5:
Market price: 150,000 gp
Component cost: 75,000 gp
Net profit: 75,000 gp
Time to create: 150 days.
Daily "wage": 500 gp.

(If you want to include XP spent in the above calculation at the standard 5 gp/XP cost, it works out to 300 gp/day instead)

My suggestion is to change the rule about item creation taking 1 day per 1,000 gp to taking 1 day per (500+level^2*10) gp. For a 7th level caster, the times almost balance out (990 gp/day), but high-level casters can make items much faster and thereby make more gp per day - which they should be able to do. The gp per day would look like this:

[COLOR=coral]
level   gp/day
1        510
2        540
3        590
4        660
5        750
6        860
7        990
8       1140
9       1310
10      1500
11      1710
12      1940
13      2190
14      2460
15      2750
16      3060
17      3390
18      3740
19      4110
20      4500[/COLOR]

In our example, it would mean that the 3rd level druid needs 2 days to make his cloak and thus makes 250 gp per day, whereas the 15th level druid needs 55 days to make his amulet and makes almost 1,400 gp per day instead. Note that this doesn't change the market prices of the items, just how long it takes to make them.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, there are already Feats out there (like Magical Artisan) that reduce the costs, and therefore creation times, of items. So, my 20th-level artificer WILL get a higher "wage" per day than your apprentice, although not by much.

The bigger problem is that it makes no sense to have the gp/day be constant with level. If I'm making a top-of-the-line item for my skill level, the time needed should always be comparable. An item that was difficult at level 3 is trivial by level 20, but the time needed doesn't change. I mean really, who has 150 8-hour days to spare making one item?

The solution, I'd say, is to have it be handled under something similar to the normal Craft skill rules. Maybe add a Craft(magic) skill, maybe add several, or maybe just use caster level instead of skill ranks and item caster level instead of DC. The problem, though, is the scale involved; Craft checks are (DC * skill check result) silver pieces per week.
Magical crafting would be more like (item caster level * spellcaster's class level * 100) gold pieces per day.

 

[Wombat]

In the end, Item Creation Feats are just NOT worth it for PCs.

Especially with the XP drain (unless you use a variant rule that allows XP to be drained from someone else at no cost).

You just have to wonder why Wizards (etc.) would bother to make all the magical dingi floating around in most gameworlds...

 

[Staffan]

In the end, Item Creation Feats are just NOT worth it for PCs.

Oh? They've seemed quite happy to use it in my campaign. Of course, the item-making PCs haven't been selling the items at cost to the other PCs - they've generally charged 75% of market price for their items as compensation for their XP. This has allowed the entire party to have good equipment and thus be able to take on quite powerful challenges.

 

[S'mon]

In the end, Item Creation Feats are just NOT worth it for PCs.

Especially with the XP drain (unless you use a variant rule that allows XP to be drained from someone else at no cost).

You just have to wonder why Wizards (etc.) would bother to make all the magical dingi floating around in most gameworlds...

I have no problem with the same item taking the same time to create at all levels. A bigger problem is the assumption that XP are worth the same at all levels - in 3e they clearly aren't, 50XP to a 17th level Wizard are worth a lot more than 50XP to a 5th level Wizard. Hence items with high caster-level reqs & high XP costs are severely underpriced - rings of wishes being the most egregious example. 5gp to an XP might be ok at 3rd level, if so it's ridiculous at 20th.

 

[Staffan]

I have no problem with the same item taking the same time to create at all levels.

It's not really the time I have a beef with. It's the value of that time - why can a 3rd level wizard charge the same amount of gold for his time as a 15th level druid? However, there are two possible ways of changing this:

1. Items take as long to make as in the core rules. High-level casters charge more for their time, which means that the market prices change (Note: Market Price in this case is NOT the same as Base Price).

2. High-level casters make items faster, which results in the same market prices but different creation times.

Since I think the item prices are a more important balancer than the creation times, I chose to keep that constant rather than the creation time.

 

[S'mon]

It's not really the time I have a beef with. It's the value of that time - why can a 3rd level wizard charge the same amount of gold for his time as a 15th level druid? However, there are two possible ways of changing this:

1. Items take as long to make as in the core rules. High-level casters charge more for their time, which means that the market prices change (Note: Market Price in this case is NOT the same as Base Price).

2. High-level casters make items faster, which results in the same market prices but different creation times.

Since I think the item prices are a more important balancer than the creation times, I chose to keep that constant rather than the creation time.

If a 15th level druid makes exactly the same item a 3rd level Druid could make, I see no reason why he could charge more for it than the 3rd level druid could. If he makes an item only a 15th level druid could make, he should be able to get more money for it. 'Market price' is what the market is willing to pay, and should be based on the characteristics of the created item, not its creator.

Hence a low-level item should cost the same whoever made it. A high level item (with high level prerequisites) should cost more, whoever made it. The biggest problem with the existing rules is the linear scale for gp to XP conversion. I'd suggest that for spells with XP costs, each XP should cost at least as many gp as the minimum caster level (eg 17gp per XP for a Wish spell in a Ring of Wishes)

 

[Staffan]

If a 15th level druid makes exactly the same item a 3rd level Druid could make, I see no reason why he could charge more for it than the 3rd level druid could. If he makes an item only a 15th level druid could make, he should be able to get more money for it. 'Market price' is what the market is willing to pay, and should be based on the characteristics of the created item, not its creator.

That's why I chose to change creation time instead of market price. If you read the first post in the thread, you'll see that even when the 15th level druid is making an item at the peak of his ability (amulet of mighty fists +5), he makes the same amount of money per day as the 3rd level druid. That's the thing I find odd. Why should the time of the Archdruid of the High Forest only command the same price as the time of Bob the Druidic Initiate?

 

[Hashmalum]

Having creation time remain static, or almost so, seems perfectly reasonable to me. Look at it by analogy to more mundane crafts--even the world's greatest potter is going to have to fire his pots for the same amount of time. Paint takes a certain amount of time to dry, molten materials take a certain amount of time to cool and harden, and so on. Who's to say that the same sort of thing isn't at work in the magical item process?

 

[seasong]

Staffan, how about this: item enchantment time is 1 full day, regardless of XP cost. Market prices remain the same.

A higher level enchantmer who chooses to make low power items will make the same money as he did in the old days when that was the only thing he could produce; or he can produce high level items which command higher prices. Since the latter provides a better per diem, of course, he will have plenty of incentive to stick to the high power stuff and leave the low power stuff to his apprentices.

And I don't think most of the folks responding here are discussing the same thing as you are .