D&D (2024) High tier Fighter − the mythic warrior

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, I'm off that ride personally. Sick of people changing what I enjoy(ed) for their own dubious reasons. Now that Paizo is expunging what they feel they need to out of PF2, I'm just not going to bother with the D&D (of which I include PF) branch of RPGs anymore.

I've always wondered Scribe, what's your game?

 

[Scribe]

I've always wondered Scribe, what's your game?

Was 2 to 3.5, bounced of 4. Have played 5, but haven't really felt it was 'my game', more just what I was doing with friends if that makes sense.

Now I am well over it though, waiting on Shadowdark.

 

[Yaarel]

What I would love a mid level fighter to do would be a line effect ground pound with a great maul, or a cone of arrows, give me a small self centered burst attack. Also give me the ability to sacrifice multiple attacks for more powerful attacks. If I could try to cleave someone in two by sacrifice my three attacks per round but instead I deal 5d12 +str would be fun

If the actual cleaving happens at 0 hit points, that seems should be fine.

It would need to figure out how it relates to death saves.

Maybe players normally roll all three death saves immediately when reaching 0 hit points. This would also help the DM get a sense of how wounded the character actually is, so as to describe the scene more accurately.

 

[Yaarel]

@Scribe

I checked out the quickstart for Shadowdark. For all its old school simplicity, it has appealing modern mechanics too. If you start a thread on it, I am interesting in discussing it. There are ideas there that I feel 5e 2024 can benefit from too.

 

[Yaarel]

In the interests of not completely redesigning 5es combat game, you should probably start with utility powers and work backwards to what combat abilities support the theme.

So, how are you going to fly (or equivalent), what can you do to avoid environmental problems, what terrain altering abilities do you want, how do you resolve social situations...

Basically, what abilities let you overwhelm or avoid the skill system? What can you do that means someone doesn't have to roll a skill check?

100%

Most Fighter players are familiar with the low tiers 1-4 and 5-8. Here, there seem mainly two camps: those who like the mechanical simplicity of the Fighter in-and-out of combat, versus those who want more mechanical diversity. Some comments seem more about wanting different things to do in combat, rather than needing more power in combat. The background and skills honestly help the Fighter in noncombat challenges. So players might not feel the pinch at lower tiers. Still, the Fighter class itself needs to do more in noncombat.

You ask the useful question: "What can you do that means someone doesn't have to roll a skill check?"

What is the Fighter actually good at during noncombat?

At the high tiers 13-16 and 17-20, the noncombat challenges involve challenges that are almost impossible to overcome without magic. But perhaps fewer Fighter players reach these tiers to comment on them?

Where the spellcasters are routinely flying and teleporting, the Fighter class finds it nearly impossible to simply get past a castle wall.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

If we're adding such things, then we are violating the genre of the action movie and crossing into one or more of superheroes, scifi, horror, fantasy, etc.

In what way do the terms mythical and magical violate genre?

Generally speaking, I guess I don't really understand what you're complaining about.

The video that was linked, and has since been removed, of the guys getting launched by palm trees, forming a shield bubble, and flying through walls of spears, or literal walls, and then 'landing it' with a bounce ready to go?

Thats no setting I want to play a Fighter in, and violates the type of Fantasy settings I would wish to play in.

The issue is that D&D either intentionally or not has evolved it's high level spellcasters into Dr. Strange like superheroes.

There are hardly any fantasy settings that have these superhero wizards. Even the D&D books I've read don't have Wizards throwing around their full load out. Fantasy spellcasters tend to be much narrower in abilities, pay a huge personal price for power, limited casts per day or even year, etc.

High level D&D is mythic/superhero already because of spellcasters.

I think the OP forgot to make this a + thread and state all their assumptions which are likely things like

• assume spellcasters will remain the same (this is not about nerfing spellcasters)
• assume you want a mythic martial in the game (if you don't, don't post)
• assume your narrative explanation can unlock up to "anything" as permissions

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I'm fine with something like Micah Sweet's. Here's another one, coped from closed thread as well:

Mythic Martial
Origin: You have the blood of the First Peoples flowing through you. The First Peoples walked the world in mythic times, and would be seen as like the Gods walked among us if they existed today. They could reportedly could do any manner of fantastic feats. This manifests itself in various abilities that no mere mundane member of your race could ever hope to do. Sometimes these abilities manifest at birth and sometimes much later in life.

Permissions: theoretically anything God -like beings can do
Class features: some stuff and a large list of level based fantastical abilities martial in nature that you can mix and match to get the kind of hero you want.

Subclasses: Either specific First Peoples champion bloodline around a theme OR something special picked up on their journeys (e.g., sword master of zorn).

The "sometimes manifest later" gives the ability to have a set of lower level (say 1-6/7/8) abilities that are action heroy like so that the Class is flexible enough to do lower level action heroy martial that manifests more supernatural stuff later for those that want that.

 

[Scribe]

The issue is that D&D either intentionally or not has evolved it's high level spellcasters into Dr. Strange like superheroes.

There are hardly any fantasy settings that have these superhero wizards. Even the D&D books I've read don't have Wizards throwing around their full load out. Fantasy spellcasters tend to be much narrower in abilities, pay a huge personal price for power, limited casts per day or even year, etc.

High level D&D is mythic/superhero already because of spellcasters.

Fair. So nerf the casters and get back to a better game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fair. So nerf the casters and get back to a better game.

Off the table for WotC, and hard to implement in any case for people who like casters. Most people don't care to see their PCs made weaker.

 

[Yaarel]

Off the table for WotC, and hard to implement in any case for people who like casters. Most people don't care to see their PCs made weaker.

Heh, also off the table for Gary Gygax and AD&D 1e. Apparently, Gygax himself said: "A 20th level Fighter is Achilles. But a 20th level Magic User is Zeus."

D&D comes into existence with two very different kinds of games, the game before level 8 and the game after level 8.

Before level 8, Fighters rule and Magic Users suck. After level 8, Magic Users rule and Fighters suck. It relates to the notional "linear Fighter and quadratic Magic User".


D&D evolves since 1e by finding ways to balance the non caster classes and the spell caster classes together. Generally, this means the low tier casters are "tougher" in combat, and the high tier noncasters are "mythic" in combat. A problem seems to be, the classes balance better in combat, but noncombat generally lacks development.


An outcome of the evolution of D&D is, each tier (levels 1-4, levels 5-8, levels 9-12, levels 13-16, and levels 17-20) provides the mechanics for a completely different fantasy genre.