Hit point / damage gap in AD&D vs 3e

[Hussar]

Oooh kay. What level are you talking about. First off, to get stats all into the 30's, you're talking either insanely high point buy or epic.

Let's take the initiative case just as a fer instance.

Dex 30=+10, imp initiative +4, so that's +14. Assuming a 25 point buy, you started with a 15 dex, with 5 stat bumps, that's 20 at 20th level. +10 from enhancements, possible, but, very, very difficult.

So, yeah, Treebore's example is epic. Ok, fair enough. I know next to nothing about epic play so I'll not comment on that.

However, if Treebore is referring to levels lower than, say, 18, then his example is pure hyperbole. AC of 60? You do know that like bonuses don't stack don't you?

 

[Victim]

However, if Treebore is referring to levels lower than, say, 18, then his example is pure hyperbole. AC of 60? You do know that like bonuses don't stack don't you?

Polymorph/Shapechange based strategies can easily allow absurd stats and ACs. Most monsters have big stats and natural armor bonuses since they usually don't have many items or spell effects. So when a PC uses Shapechange to emulate a high end beastie with a roughly humanoid shape, they get the benefits of both their items/buffs and the monster's powers. Using core stuff only, an 18th level druid can turn into a pit fiend for 40 base AC, whilst having Barksin (it's an enhancement to natural armor), a ring of protection, mage armor or a similar item, stat buffs, a monk's belt, etc. He could have 60 AC without too much trouble.

Non core monsters are likely to exaggerate the problem. Stupid polymorph stuff. Stupid monsters who only have natural armor so everything stacks on them. Having really tough skin could just grant an armor bonus, which would make shapechanging far less effective, as well as remove the incentive for dragons to wear huge sets of plate armor and other such foolishness.

 

[jmucchiello]

Using core stuff only, an 18th level druid can turn into a pit fiend for 40 base AC, whilst having Barksin (it's an enhancement to natural armor), a ring of protection, mage armor or a similar item, stat buffs, a monk's belt, etc. He could have 60 AC without too much trouble.

Pit Fiends have 20 HD and errata to Shapechange only allows HD up to caster level (max 25 HD). So your Druid needs to be 20th level. My epic wizzy gets to AC 67 as a solar. Of course, at that level, enemies don't bother targetting the solar, whittling down the rest of the party and saving the solar for later.

My problem with big monster AC is some of their AC bonus should be magical, going away in a anti-magic area. But that's a different peave.

 

[the Jester]

Fireball may be useless at high levels, but if you maximize and empower it (or what have you), it suddenly regains a certain attractiveness.

 

[Victim]

Pit Fiends have 20 HD and errata to Shapechange only allows HD up to caster level (max 25 HD). So your Druid needs to be 20th level. My epic wizzy gets to AC 67 as a solar. Of course, at that level, enemies don't bother targetting the solar, whittling down the rest of the party and saving the solar for later.

My problem with big monster AC is some of their AC bonus should be magical, going away in a anti-magic area. But that's a different peave.

Pit Fiend
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 18d8+144 (225 hp)

Even if they had 20 HD, the druid could still use caster level boosting items or class abilities to make up the gap. A druid 17/Heirophant 1 with an orange ioun stone hits CL 20.

 

[Treebore]

Oooh kay. What level are you talking about. First off, to get stats all into the 30's, you're talking either insanely high point buy or epic.

Let's take the initiative case just as a fer instance.

Dex 30=+10, imp initiative +4, so that's +14. Assuming a 25 point buy, you started with a 15 dex, with 5 stat bumps, that's 20 at 20th level. +10 from enhancements, possible, but, very, very difficult.

So, yeah, Treebore's example is epic. Ok, fair enough. I know next to nothing about epic play so I'll not comment on that.

However, if Treebore is referring to levels lower than, say, 18, then his example is pure hyperbole. AC of 60? You do know that like bonuses don't stack don't you?

If you look at post 30 on the first page you will see where I said I was/am playing an Epic Arcane caster. Yes, I am aware that like bonuses do not stack, I do know the rules pretty well. I don't have them memorized, but I definitely am solid on the basic below Epic Level stuff.

Can anyone tell me where the rules are about overcoming SR and if it is capped at 20th level or not? IE, like Greater Dispelling maxes out at +20.

BTW, Power Word Spells absolutely suck at high level. PW: Kill only effects creatures when they are 101 HP or lower. What kind of whimpy doo doo is that? PW: Stun only effects 201 HP! So what spells is a high level caster supposed to use that will effect and kill other high level monsters/NPC's? Not to mention they are effected by SR. Tonight we fought a creature with an SR of 46! When they put together the Epic level handbook they either playtested with the most min/max munchkin characters they could put together or they never playtested at all!

I became an Elemetal Savant, Earth, at 15th level and became an Earth Elemental at 25th. I am immune to poison, petrification, crits, etc... Plus I am immune to Acid. Everyone is immune to something because of Prestige Classes or magic items, usually a lot of things. The monsters are even worse. Epic level play needs a lot of work to be able to work, because right now I am finding it to be a lot of nonsense. That these dice limits, and HP limits, and to even allow immunities, all big mistakes if you want a game that remains challenging at high level. High level play shows just how over powered lower level play is. Too god-like way too fast.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, fair enough. Epic is just that... epic. I have never played it, nor even really read through it, so, I can't really comment except for one thing. From your comments Treebore, you sound like the epic level critters are beating on you fairly soundly. An SR of 46 sounds pretty insane. Then again, it's epic, so, it's always going to sound insane.

But, then again, where's the problem? The monsters are challenging and the wizards aren't ruling the game. Sounds pretty good to me. If SR is getting in your way, start using some of the other spells. Stuff that gets around SR like buffing the party, or summoning. At epic levels, you can GATE. Dragon recently ran an article about gating in epic level stuff. Really funky stuff. Class leveled solars and such. Nothing like bringing in the big guns.

 

[Treebore]

True, but since there are no real guidelines for Epic the DM is pretty much limiting things to be "on the safe side", So yes, we are beating the creatures, even running away (last night that SR 46 creature we ran away from, more because it had three White Wyrm Dragons as pets/cohorts/allies, than anything else. Yes, the monster is in the ELH.)

My problem is that I hardly do anything effective. Say creatures have 1,000 HP, and they often do, I might, maybe, if I am lucky, do as much as a 100 HP to it. summoning monsters does no good unless the DM allows you to summon Epic Level creatures, which I don't. Even Gating doesn't get me Epic Level monsters. So the Epic level creatures ignore anything I summon because they know they can't be hurt by such whimpy creatures. The only thing I have been able to summon that has been useful, occassionally, is the Elemental Swarm spell. All the demons and devils I can summon used to be real tough, now they are laughable to the epic level creatures.

Like I have mentioned before (Maybe in the Epic Spell Book thread) I don't bother buffing because the Epic Level Magic items (which I made a lot of, so that is cool) are far better than any buff spell I can just cast, because the items are +10, or +12 for stat boosting items.

As for how my initiative is +23, I get +2 from a class ability, +8 from Epic Initiative (stacked on top of Improved Intit., not stacked, but added on to, in place of), and the rest is from my high and buffed up DEX, something like a 36 DEX with buffed DEX Item, for a +13 DEX bomus, my DEX stat is a 24, with another 12 coming from Boots of Swiftness that I made with the Dex mod at +12.

So our characters are definitely Epic when it comes to magic items and stat scores, but the spells suck! How do you make spells "epic". Adding metamagics to boost them up to 12th level does not an Epic spell make, at least not making it effective against Epic creatures.

 

[Endur]

You couldn't handle the Hill Giants with seven guys the equivalent of 12/12 level?!?! I have to agree then we must have played different modules.

A typical 1st ed hill giant had 37-38 HPs, AC 4, THAC0 12 and hits for 9 HP damage on average. Your front liners must have had at least an AC -2, if not better, at that level and hill giants are ripe for big AoE attacks (Fireball had a 20ft radius in 1st ed and no die cap).

We had two wizards in our party. One 8th and one 9th as I recall. The Giants were all dead after one round.

 

[Raven Crowking]

But the window of game design Third Edition uses seems to be extremely narrow.

QFT, and not just with the four players thing. Changing any of the variables (wealth per level, availability of magic, etc.) requires the same sort of "feeling your way to appropriate challenges" that adding a fifth (or removing the fourth) PC does.

OTOH, as you say, that's par for the course for games as long as RPGs have been around. The simplicity of using 3e "as is" creates an illusion that using it any other way is more difficult than it really is. I find the system to be far more accepting of change than it is generally argued to be.