Hit Points--A study of humanoids.

[Rachel]

A certain realization about Hit Points has been bouncing around in my head for a while now, and I want to put it out there b/c I don't know if I'm on to something, or what?

Theory: Humanoid monsters have too many Hit Points. Far too many.
Controls: My Gnome fighter vs. some Orcs (a common low-mid lvl foe).

Reasoning and "The Math":

Myria at 1st Level has 29 HP (15+14 Con) +5 (Toughness feat) = 34 (sorry powergamers, this is a sub-optimal build b/c gnomes do not favor the fighter class stat-wise and I am not among your kind).

By 3rd Level she will have 46 HP (+6/lvl, 2 levels gained) compared to an Orc Raider's (Level 3 Skirmisher) 46 HP. A dead-on tie, and seems fine.

When she reaches 4th level, she will have 52 HP vs. the Orc Berserker's (Level 4 Brute) 66. Already she is getting a bit outclassed, considering that--as a fighter--she is very likely to be going directly up against this monster. (Bear in mind, we are looking at one-on-one matchups simply b/c it is assumed that both will have teammates assisting them and factoring what help they may or not be is beyond the scope of this theory).

Continuing, a 4th Level Orc encounter as given in the MM (pg. 205) would see two of these Berserkers, along with 2 Raiders and 1 Dire Boar. Assuming their are 5 PCs, it is even odds numerically. Again, Myria is likely to be facing one of these Berserker's dead-on.
And as we see, just looking at HP, Myria is "behind the eightball" already. This only gets worse....

By 9th Level, Myria will have 88 HP (after 6/lvl advances). Compare this with the Level 9 Orc Encounter in the MM. The Orc Chieftain (yes, he is an Elite) has a whopping 216 HP! Now, let's say that Myria's four companions managed to mostly neutralize the 8 companions of the Chieftain (as listed in the encounter--that's 2-1 odds but doiable for PC's working together), it is possible that Myria (again, as a fighter) may be asked to tackle the "big guy". In any game, this should be a big challenge, but doable. Again, looking at the HP's of Myria and the Chieftain, it looks next to impossible that she could succeed.
(Note: Attacks/Saves and other abilities scale up for both the Orcs and Myria/other PC's, so we are assuming that those are relative equal in terms of capability. Again, we are just looking at HP.)

So what you have, in effect, are two combatants who may be relatively equal in most terms. But! With one (the Orc) having such vastly superior HP, it's almost a no-win for our dear gnomie (excluding some amazing luck). It's 88 HP vs. 216 HP!
Now, of course if her allies are up to it and can really help out, say make it 3-on-1 vs. the big baddie Chieftain, this evens out. But in an encounter when the group is already outnumbered 9-5 (again, using 5 PC's vs. the Level 9 Orc Encounter as listed in the MM), Myria's friends may not be able to help much and she may herself not be at 100%.

Perhaps if the Orc Chieftain were a "Solo" monster (instead of Elite surrounded by a group of 8 allies) this would be solved. But, that makes less sense, as he is a Chieftain--and an Orc--both of which means he *will* be surrouded by allies.

Sure, their are monsters I expect to have that level of HP at 9th level. But not any humanoid. It comes down to this, really:
An Orc, no matter how strong, imposing, and worthy of Orcish leadership, is still just an Orc. Just as a human, no matter how good, is still just a human (and no human makes any sense having such HP--think of fragile we are! even our best warrior can't take a dozen major hits equivalent of damage).

I understand this is a bit simulationist, and takes a bit of the abstraction out of the game. Also, I understand the need for strong challenges at mid-higher levels as the PC levels advance, but a humanoid is still a humanoid---in my mind, they can only be so tough. This applies to most mortal humanoids (not things such as demons, in which high HP make plenty more sense, for example).

I think I have shown where, in strictly HP terms, the "scaling" is way off. Myria should have some chance. Even if the Orc Chieftain only commanded *double* (176 HP) Myria's HP (as opposed to 216) that's still too great a challenge, and probably still too high for any humanoid that is just a normal humanoid.
Turn to any humanoid in the MM and study their HP. The Mind Flayer Mastermind (Level 18 Controller) has an astounding 324 HP---for a creature that is basically just a squishy, octopus-based humanoid.

IMHO, you make humanoid monsters fit their XP level not by insane amounts of HP, but by powerful attacks/abilities, huge numerical advantage, and other considerations. The Mind Flayer should just do nasty things (which it does!) but probably should have about a 1/3rd of the listed HP. Their is no way any humanoid, no matter it's beastial roots, can take 324 HP damage worth of hits. It defies logic. (Sorry abstraction!)

So, am I way off here thinking that we should totally lower humanoid monster HP to more reasonable amounts, all other things being comparative? Am I on to something or way off?

Comments?

 

[Nytmare]

Comments?

Healing. Surges?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Healing. Surges?

To elaborate:

Monsters have usually none, sometimes a little healing abilities. Heroic characters do have lots of that, and they are expected to use it. Also, they have typically more powers and more effective powers than monsters.

In essence, if a monster seems unbeatable without healing powers and attack powers, that's on purpose. It makes it important to use these powers, and use them effectively.

You could take away all those healing surges and healing powers, but then you'd lessen an important tactical aspect of the game - the distribution and timing of healing.

 

[Alisair Longreach]

One of the major flaws of 4E is monster hit point inflation. Compared to earlier editions 4E monsters have at least +50% more hp.

Another major flaw is the nerfed damage output of PCs compared both to monster hp inflation and earlier editions. A 4E PC only have these damage enhancers: Increase in primary ability score, enhancement bonus from magic items, a few feats, some boost from a Leader. A 3E PC also had extra dice from elemental damage enchantments on magic weapons, ability score boosters and more attacks per round.

If you go by RAW then combat encounters will last longer be harder as you level up. At the low end of the Heroic tier combat will be fast, furious and fun and done within one hour depending on the encounter composition. When you reach the Paragon tier average to hard encounters will always devolve into drawn-out, boring grindfests that may last two or more hours.

The easy houserule fix is to give PCs Expertise feats as bonus feats and either add the ½ level bonus to the damage of both PCs and monsters or reduce monster hp by 50%.

If you prefer to run your game by RAW without any house rules then you have to, as the DM, to carefully manage each encounter, keep them small and never above the party level.

 

[Roger]

Theory: Humanoid monsters have too many Hit Points. Far too many.

I'm not entirely sure what you're comparing. Is it:

A) Humanoid monsters to non-humanoid monsters, or
B) Humanoid monsters to humanoid PCs, or
C) Some other thing?

I think you're talking about B, but I'm not completely clear on it.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Nytmare]

One of the major flaws of 4E...

Declarations of flaws, nerfing, and the inherent dangers of boredom associated with running things by the book aside, creatures have more hitpoints and PCs deal less damage than they used to because this is a different game. My score in a pinball game is going to be higher than when I play D&D too, that doesn't mean that there's a problem.

 

[Amaroq]

Healing. Surges?

Yeah, spot on.

Consider the Orc Bersker's 66-to-52 advantage at level 4. Add one Second Wind for Myria, and she's at 66-to-65 .. plus whatever healing surges her companions send her way .. plus a significant advantage in AC.

I'd say her "Effective Hit Points" are higher than the Orc Berserker's, even if he has more on paper.

If it helps, just consider his hit point total to include some healing surges spent in combat.

When you get to the Elite Chieftan, 216-to-88 .. well, an Elite counts as two creatures, so you ought to give Myria a clone of herself, at which point she's down 216 to 176 .. and has two +22 second winds, for +44, which gives her ... oh look! 220.

I don't think its a coincidence at all that the numbers come out so close to identical in both the L4 and L9 case, do you?

 

[Dredly]

a more accurate comparison may be to use an actual PC vs their non-PC counter part.

for example: a lvl 10 Minotaur Warrior (from Mob Manual) has 106 HP but their stats are way above what a PC would be at this stage

A lvl 10 Minotaur Warrior (with 20 con) would have 89 HP. So there is only a 17 point difference. Keep in mind this matching a PC to a Monster.. Add in Toughness and the PC would be at 99, only 7 off from the mob

 

[Rachel]

Yeah, spot on.

Consider the Orc Bersker's 66-to-52 advantage at level 4. Add one Second Wind for Myria, and she's at 66-to-65 .. plus whatever healing surges her companions send her way .. plus a significant advantage in AC.

I took pains to show that Myria's companions are *not* in the equation (for all the reasons stated in my post). So the surges sent her way from companions are intentionally not factored. Again, the idea is to look at what Myria can do by herself assuming her allies are otherwise engaged or down.

I'd say her "Effective Hit Points" are higher than the Orc Berserker's, even if he has more on paper.

So you're playing the game to take damage and burn healing surges just so you can be equal? How about being equal from the start w/o having to get beat up first??

If it helps, just consider his hit point total to include some healing surges spent in combat..

Agree this should be factored in. A couple people brought this up, and the Orc Chieftain does have 1 Warrior's Surge encounter power but PC's have alot more. Point well taken.

When you get to the Elite Chieftan, 216-to-88 .. well, an Elite counts as two creatures, so you ought to give Myria a clone of herself, at which point she's down 216 to 176 .. and has two +22 second winds, for +44, which gives her ... oh look! 220.

"An elite counts as two creatures" is 100% abstraction. It doesn't count as two creatures *in the reality of combat*. It is a single creature standing there ticked off. Likewise, Myria is only a single creature. Why would I "give her a clone"? Also pure abstraction. Whatever you say, there is still only one Myria there on the battlefield. So, in reality, I add 2 second winds for +44 which would make the HP comparison between our heroic gnome and the orc baddie 216-132.

I don't think its a coincidence at all that the numbers come out so close to identical in both the L4 and L9 case, do you?

Snarky and unnescessary. Feel free to disagree, but keep it above the belt please.

 

[Rachel]

a more accurate comparison may be to use an actual PC vs their non-PC counter part.

for example: a lvl 10 Minotaur Warrior (from Mob Manual) has 106 HP but their stats are way above what a PC would be at this stage

A lvl 10 Minotaur Warrior (with 20 con) would have 89 HP. So there is only a 17 point difference. Keep in mind this matching a PC to a Monster.. Add in Toughness and the PC would be at 99, only 7 off from the mob

I see the point your making, but my scenario is 100% accurate and couldn't be more so. The scenario I described could happen exactly as I described it in any game. I am aiming a PC vs. a certain mob, and you are aiming a PC vs. it's representative from the MM. Yours is an entirely different discussion.

Thanks for the response just the same.