Hit points & long rests: please consider?

[underfoot007ct]

I'm talking about the general principle of not violating people's suspension of disbelief. R. A. Salvatore does a pretty good job of describing his combats and injuries in a way that does not do this.

But his works are a product of a certain time and a certain rules design ethos of the Lorraine Williams era of TSR. Some of us prefer the fiction that originally inspired D&D and is better represented by the rules design ethos of Arnensen, Gygax, Mentzer, etc.,.

When it comes to the fiction produced by playing Dungeons & Dragons, some people find things like "sleep for six hours and you're at full capacity" to be rather jarring and breaking of one's suspension of disbelief. It also makes fiction where a character is felled by a blow because their injury prevented them from blocking it impossible if the injury happened one sleep ago. Or fiction where an injured party is pursued over multiple days. If they can manage to whole up for an 8 hour period, they turn from running and go back into super hero mode at full capacity.

If you have such a difficult time with the "suspension of disbelief" over regaining full HP. Please explain how you can accept regaining spells overnight. Even accepting spells,dragon, & even magic, that is not "jarring"?
So waking up reinvigorated is unbelievable, yet beholder & ghouls are fine??

I have not read R. A. Salvatore, nor do I have any interest to do so. I just want to play a "fantasy" RPG, not a simulate of REAL combat.

I think that is just being TOO selective of what you are claiming is difficult to accept. Also, when did being at normal (full hp) capacity turn in to "super Hero" mode?

 

[nnms]

If you have such a difficult time with the "suspension of disbelief" over regaining full HP. Please explain how you can accept regaining spells overnight. Even accepting spells,dragon, & even magic, that is not "jarring"?
So waking up reinvigorated is unbelievable, yet beholder & ghouls are fine??

Ugh.

The whole point is that they are not realistic. They are fantastic. I enjoy them as fantastic.

Having the non-fantastic stuff be realistic, plausible and in keeping with real work expectations serves to highlight the fantastic nature of these elements.

Enjoying these things without going "but that makes no sense" is enough of an ask without also asking me to suspend going "but that makes no sense" for the mundane things as well. And then add on top of that the fact that I can no longer make decisions based on the mundane functioning like the real world and instead can only base them off of the rules.

Also, when did being at normal (full hp) capacity turn in to "super Hero" mode?

If a group is running because they are injured and their resources are expended and suddenly that situation is undone, the fictional basis for a protracted escape is undone. They can then go "Let our powers combine!" and turn around and face what caused them to run because the situation that made it a threat (low on HP and resources) is now gone.

 

[Walking Dad]

This type of argument gets used frequently, and it's never a good one. Fantasy games should be realistic except in the specific places where they are meant to be fantastic.

Realism lets us use our real world common sense to figure out what to do. Take that away and the game world loses a lot of depth because all we have to base decisions on are the rules, and no matter how good they are they don't match the depth of real life.

But a group game should also be balanced to give each player the same chance to affect the game, right?
What is realistic about the typical fantasy world? Landmasses? Climate? Astrometry? Genetics? Economy?
Why is it so unrealistic that in world with dragons and magic people heal a bit faster? Or why has the DM describe every wound as a terribly scarring event?

Is there a (realistic) reason why magic refreshes on a daily basis?

 

[Walking Dad]

I'm talking about the general principle of not violating people's suspension of disbelief. R. A. Salvatore does a pretty good job of describing his combats and injuries in a way that does not do this.

But his works are a product of a certain time and a certain rules design ethos of the Lorraine Williams era of TSR. Some of us prefer the fiction that originally inspired D&D and is better represented by the rules design ethos of Arnensen, Gygax, Mentzer, etc.,.

When it comes to the fiction produced by playing Dungeons & Dragons, some people find things like "sleep for six hours and you're at full capacity" to be rather jarring and breaking of one's suspension of disbelief. It also makes fiction where a character is felled by a blow because their injury prevented them from blocking it impossible if the injury happened one sleep ago. Or fiction where an injured party is pursued over multiple days. If they can manage to whole up for an 8 hour period, they turn from running and go back into super hero mode at full capacity.

Suspension of disbelief varies widely. And you cannot do any of your fiction examples in a group a bit experienced and having a cleric.

I like Howard for example, and Conan doesn't lies down after every wound for some days or waits for a priest to heal him.

 

[nnms]

What is realistic about the typical fantasy world?

All the stuff that is not specifically there to be fantastic.

Why is it so unrealistic that in world with dragons and magic people heal a bit faster?

If it's part of the fantastic, then just make it so. Put in a paragraph about every character being like Wolverine and having mutant healing factor.

Or why has the DM describe every wound as a terribly scarring event?

Not every wound. Just the ability to do it at all without it also meaning that the recipient is both unconscious and dying. A axe hit that does the best possible damage should be able to be described as actually connecting. In 4E and 5E, it can't be as it instantly goes away with a nap.

Is there a (realistic) reason why magic refreshes on a daily basis?

Why would something that is intentionally supposed to be fantastic need to be realistic?

The whole point that I apparently have failed to communicate is that mundane things being realistic while fantastic things being fantastic allows a great level of contrast to accentuate the fantastic. The whole point of mundane things being plausible is to make the fantastic even more potent. And, to be able to make decisions based on normal expectations of plausibility rather than have to make decisions out of rules constructs.

 

[Walking Dad]

WotC talked about 5E being about getting back players who stopped being their customers because they liked games WotC doesn't sell anymore. It's about uniting the editions. You've heard the hype.

4E's healing mechanics were incredibly divisive back in 2008. Having the same ones present again doesn't match with WotC's own stated design goal of building bridges to customer's they have alienated in the past.

So your solution would be alienating the customers they currently have???

This would have been the perfect chance to demonstrate the much vaunted modularity. But they blew it and just rehashed a 4E mechanic.

I think showing an option first that is similar to the current edition isn't the worst idea...

Hopefully the next playtest package update will contain a method of healing that is more palatable to the players they alienated with 4E's hit points/healing surge/extended rest mechanics.

And if they started with that option, the current D&D fans would wait for their option.

Modularity is exactly for this type of situation.

Agreed, but maybe not possible to show all options in the first playtest.

 

[nnms]

Suspension of disbelief varies widely.

Which is why I said this is a perfect opportunity for Wizards to show off the whole modularity/appeal to everyone thing they've been hyping.

But they didn't. They just rehashed a 4E mechanic that lots of people have had a problem with for the last 4 years.

And you cannot do any of your fiction examples in a group a bit experienced and having a cleric.

But you can do it at low levels just fine-- well, unless everyone has mutant healing factor.

I like Howard for example, and Conan doesn't lies down after every wound for some days or waits for a priest to heal him.

When he is seriously injured, the whole tone of the story changes. Brazen courage turns to caution and cunning. There's lots of examples of things like that in lots of fiction.

 

[Walking Dad]

Ugh.

The whole point is that they are not realistic. They are fantastic. I enjoy them as fantastic.

Having the non-fantastic stuff be realistic, plausible and in keeping with real work expectations serves to highlight the fantastic nature of these elements.

Enjoying these things without going "but that makes no sense" is enough of an ask without also asking me to suspend going "but that makes no sense" for the mundane things as well. And then add on top of that the fact that I can no longer make decisions based on the mundane functioning like the real world and instead can only base them off of the rules.

...

Isn't this the argument for quadratic wizards/linear fighters, which so many dislike?

And how often do players act according how things work in the real world and how often of things they had seen in the movie.
(Example: Hit the charmed guy on the head with a blunt weapon. There cannot be any lasting injury.)

Or my favorite Pf example: Blunt arrows for fighting skeletons, that do as much damage as sharp ones...

 

[nnms]

So your solution would be alienating the customers they currently have???

Modularity.

And if they started with that option, the current D&D fans would wait for their option.
...
Agreed, but maybe not possible to show all options in the first playtest.

Perhaps when Wotc is attempting to build bridges to people WotC has lost as customers, it would be prudent to do so right from the start. At the very least, for the most prominent objections to their previous product.

 

[Walking Dad]

...
But you can do it at low levels just fine-- well, unless everyone has mutant healing factor.
...

No mutant healing factor. Different opinions on what HP stand for (they are not health or wound points). And just don't let them rest the required time if you want to hunt them down.

For a fiction example for mutant healing, see Rambo. Sewing the own arm and it is as good as new.