Honestly, if WoTC didn't create it would 4e be D&D?

[blargney the second]

It's D&D, but it's not the same D&D; it's a new edition.

4E needs to be judged on its own merits; that it's "different" is not a value judgement worth making - as far as I'm concerned, it had better be different, or I'll want a refund!* If I'm buying a new game, I expect a new game, not the same game.

I absolutely agree.

I think the real issue is that change can be scary. Insert Yoda quote here.
-blarg

 

[Remathilis]

Compared to wiping out hit dice, attack progression, spell system, classes and race that have been constant (and often literally copy-and-pasted) throughout OD&D, 1E, 2E, and 3E, the new edition doesn't remotely look like the same mechanical game system.

I think (in all honesty) this seems to be the biggest general (sub-conscious) reason people dislike 4e: It chucks some of the fundamental "clunky" rules that have defined the game from nearly its inception...

Its these mechanical aspects that seem to create a "vision" of what a D&D character is/can do. A 5th level magic-user/mage/wizard can fly or throw a 5d6 ball of fire (but rarely at the same time) if he has the spell readied for the day. This is no longer true in 4e: fireball doesn't do your level x d6 damage, and you can't fly until nearly 10 levels later. Is it better balanced? You betcha. Is it a radical departure from what players have been used to for the better of 20 years? That too.

What makes this different from reversing the AC upwards or removing Save. Vs. Petrification/Polymorph for Fortitude Saves was that it defined your character. A 5th level wizard can fly. A 9th level Cleric can raise the dead. A magic missile never misses. A 7th level fighter has more than one attack per round. Rogues (and only rogues) were trapfinders. None of these things are true anymore. It changes what these character's roles (not as 4e uses the term) are in the game and requires much deprogramming to accept that polymorph is gone, wizards can raise the dead, fighters get one attack/round, and anyone can find traps trained in thievery.

But is it still D&D? I think so. Enough of its soul remains that even if the mechanics is different, the spirit uniquely D&D is there. I don't know if that is because of the trademark, the title, the classic mix of races and classes, or what, but I know it still feels like D&D when I read it or play it, just not the D&D I used to play.

The more things change...

 

[xechnao]

...but I don't think I like the implied setting.
Even if I want players to shine, they don't have to start as "demi"-god like beings, for example...I couldn't get a real "vision" of how a character looked like...but I still need some adventure or story to come up with

Understood. So this is an important element that attracts you to D&D and you had failed to mention so far. Indeed, to me this is the most important aspect of D&D's appeal: what it does with generic fantasy fluff. It just allows you to easily and on the fly make up something interesting as a story. Yes, this is D&D's biggest point IMO.

 

[Kichwas]

Let me say upfront that I know WoTC owns the IP called D&D and can create a game similar to chutes and ladders and call it D&D as such is their legal right.

I would say that this is essentially what they have done.

GURPS has as much in common with 'the traditions of DnD' as 4E does.

The same claim cannot be made about 3.xE however. 4E is the first time a game claiming to be DnD dropped a large number of the 'sacred cows' and at the same time introduced a vast array of both completely new genre and system concepts. But its the new genre concepts that are the more important of the two.

Partial listing:

Dropped sacred cow:
1/2 Orc
Gnome (from PHB)
Druid
Monk
multiclassing (4E doesn't let you take a class, just a limited version of one feature each time you take a feat to get something outside your class).
9 Alignments
scrolls
wizards having a spellbook only limited by their time in research
low level rings
several classic artifacts
death of the lowbie (DnD has always had low levels as extremely deadly)

Transmogrified cow:
Elven subraces (high, wood)
Vancian magic/abilities (expanded from casters onto all classes)
Skill system no longer individualizable in ranks
Tactical combat more strongly enforced (near impossible to play without using minis).
Saving throws (something still exists by that name, but its use is very different)

Dropped semi-divine cow:
Barbarian

New genre concepts:
MMO-roles enforced in game mechanics
Dragonborn
Warlord
Warlock
Everything being a power
Rituals



Lets look at the 3.x list:

Dropped cows:
Proficiencies

Transmogrified:
Multiclassing
Level limits (same for all races)

New:
Skill system
Sorcerer
Feats
Prestige Classes
Barbarian (been there since 1E, but never before core)
Tactical combat
PC crafted magic items

Return of the sacred Cow:
Monk
1/2 Orc


4E -removed- much of what has been 'DnDisms' for the past 30 years. 3E made a number of changes, but they were almost all additions rather than subtractions.

 

[Felix]

The question has a faulty premise: There has never been a Ford truck better than a Chevy.

...Unless we're talking about being better at breaking down.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

The question has a faulty premise: There has never been a Ford truck better than a Chevy.

...Unless we're talking about being better at breaking down.

Them are fightin words

 

[hong]

Exalted is also a great game, although it has serious mechanical weaknesses. Yet 4E is clearly influenced by this game (how did WoTC get away with stealing the Primordials war with the Gods; this is lifted straight for the Exalted backstory,

Gods vs titans is straight out of ancient Greek myth.

as is the idea of characters as MEGA at the games beginning.

4E characters are not mega at the start. They just have more hit points so that people don't drop from the first hit, allowing more tactical play. You still fight the old D&D regulars at 1st level: giant rats, kobolds, goblins, etc.

 

[hong]

@Jack99 I'm not exactly clear on what it is your asking for. Do you want a blow by blow comparison of games to D&D, because in my experience very few reviews do something like this. IMHO, the fact that Reign allows you to play a single PC and manage and "play" a company he may be a part of or lead, is steps beyond what D&D 4e allows you to do. I think Exalted also has rules for things like this as well. Now in 10 years when this is added to D&D will it be "revolutionary"... no, it's already been done.

The comment about it being a traditional rpg is because it is an indie rpg and often times they do not subscribe to the set up of traditional rpgs... Reign does. If you want to know what makes Reign superior, IMHO, I'd be happy to tell you.

It does not facilitate the killing of monsters and taking their stuff any better than D&D. Therefore it is doomed to be yet another fantasy heartbreaker.

 

[Imaro]

It does not facilitate the killing of monsters and taking their stuff any better than D&D. Therefore it is doomed to be yet another fantasy heartbreaker.

How do you know? Have you played it, are you speaking from an informed background or just speaking? What about it doesn't do this better than D&D?

 

[hong]

How do you know? Have you played it, are you speaking from an informed background or just speaking? What about it doesn't do this better than D&D?

Have you played it? Does it facilitate the killing of monsters and taking their stuff any better than D&D?