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Honestly - What is Eragon?

Merlion said:
Ok...thats all well and good. But my questions then are: Who decides what the "correct" use of those things is? What makes them correct? And does deviating from that make a work "bad" or simply mean that its breaking that particular set of rules or guidlines, automatically?
By "correct" I mean not to use a mixed metaphor, or to use one that doesn't actually mean what you're trying to say. Just like using big words doesn't automatically make you sound smart if you don't know what they mean.

As for the rest (I don't like to quote single sentences and address them): Obviously, every rule has its exceptions, and breaking a rule can be done to great effect. There's a difference, however, between breaking a rule on purpose and not even knowing there's a rule.

Secondly, the reason why there are many different elements that all come together to constitute quality is because sometimes certain elements aren't important in the context of a story. So if you purposely make your characters into cardboard stereotypes, then I'd hope there are other qualities that either mask this decision or even work because of it. You have to look at the whole. For example (I think it's been said before), Lovecraft's use of dialogue was inept, but his stories nevertheless work. On the other hand, a lot of the fantasy fiction I read is badly written, plotted, designed, but a few I enjoyed despite it all, and with others I enjoyed them because of it. Romance novels are in an overwhelming majority really awful and derivative – but they sell extremely well, because their audience doesn't demand Mme Bovary. That's not bad, or evil, or anything – but the books are badly written nonetheless. It's just not important.
 

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Obviously, every rule has its exceptions, and breaking a rule can be done to great effect. There's a difference, however, between breaking a rule on purpose and not even knowing there's a rule.

Several things. First off, I'm not sure I totally accept that there are objective "rules" of "good" and "bad" in writting or any other creative area.


However I understand what you mean and I agree to a point, however what you describe does not neccesarily make a writer a bad writer, or a book a bad book, it often simply means they are imperefect, or still have things to learn and room to grow (both of which are true of everyone).

Nextly, I tend to think that most people that even have the inclination to write tend to be aware of the things you speak of or at least most of them. When I started writing I had no formal training at all in it, hadnt even been formally taught grammar, but I knew how things are supposed to sound. Usualy, mistakes in the areas you mention are simply part of a learning proccess. They dont neccesarily label a writer or a work as "bad" and they certainly dont rob it of all value.


Secondly, the reason why there are many different elements that all come together to constitute quality is because sometimes certain elements aren't important in the context of a story


The thing is, which qualities are needed, and even often the qualities themselves, are subjective matters of individual taste.


On the other hand, a lot of the fantasy fiction I read is badly written, plotted, designed, but a few I enjoyed despite it all, and with others I enjoyed them because of it


This brings up an issue we havent really spoken about yet, the issue of purpose, and the relationship of a work's quality to wether or not it fullfills its intended purpose.

The two main purposes behind most creative works, especially I think as far as writing, music and visual arts like painting go, is one the fact that the artist enjoys the act itself (and often has things floating in his head that he wants to get out) and two, to give enjoyment and pleasure to those who read/see/hear/whatever the work. There are often secondary purposes...a writer may want to explore a genre or character type he's never used before, or may want to make a statement..and of course some works have making a certain statement as their main purpose.
However, usualy the main goal is enjoyment.

The two primary goals of actually publishing/recording/selling/whatevering such a work are usualy one, to get it out to more people to do whatever its intended to do, and two, to make money in the proccess.

In the case of Eragon, based on what I have read about it and its author, its purpose was primarily enjoyment; enjoyment of the author in creating it, and enjoyment of the audience in reading it. And then of course it was published to facilitate that, and to make money in the proccess.

It has succeeded very well at both those goals. Many have enjoyed it, and it has made a great deal of money. It attained its intended purpose, which I think its a major contributor to the quality or value of a work.



I think the reason that you and some others are able to seperate "quality" from enjoyment is because when you say quality, you mean level of adherence to a set of guidlines, not inherent value, or attainment of purpose.



Romance novels are in an overwhelming majority really awful and derivative – but they sell extremely well, because their audience doesn't demand Mme Bovary. That's not bad, or evil, or anything – but the books are badly written nonetheless. It's just not important.


Your right. It isnt important, because to those who enjoy them, they are not bad or badly written. They just dont meet your personal standards of enjoyment, which are no better or worse or more or less important or accurate than anyone elses.
 

When I said that the book was bad, he didn't disagree with me by making an argument for the book being good. He said (paraphrasing) that good and bad are too subjective to use in any kind of objective way. When I disagreed, he asked who I was to disagree


For the record, this is not entirely accurate wether through mistake or purpose. I asked who *anyone* is to try and create objective criteria for a subjective area, and how such a thing could even exist as a final authority.


"Well, I guess different kinds of dentistry work for different people, and who are we to say which is better?"


This is not a very good comparison. Medical practices are pretty much objective, especially in terms of execution. If your performing a triple bypass and instead remove the person's kidneys, or perform a heart transplant and sew up the patient without putting the new heart in, then your a bad surgeon and your operation was a failure. Likewise if an architect builds a building that collapses in a day, or a cobbler makes shoes that are shaped like hooves, they are a bad cobbler or architect. Your items or creations or actions failed to serve their purpose. these things are totally objective.

But any form of art, is primarily subjective. Everyone has their own opinions of whats good or not. And usualy their primary purpose is to entertain, and give enjoyment, therefore if anyone enjoys them they have served their purpose.
 

I guess you can count me among the few who did enjoy the book. No, its not original by any means but I think thats a major problem with the fantasy media any more. Eragon was the first book I read in nearly 5 months that had a dragon fight and I tend to go through 2-3 fantasy novels a week. Everybody has to be totally original now.

If you want something that is totally new, stop reading, stop watching tv, hell, stop playing D&D. But if you are looking for the original spin on the classic concepts, stay a bit away from Eragon. In my opinion though, it was a simple book with a simple plot that ended up as an enjoyable read. The character development and plot is highly cliché but its not a bad read. Despite this, I doubt I will watch the movie.
 


Merlion said:
Likewise if an architect builds a building that collapses in a day, or a cobbler makes shoes that are shaped like hooves, they are a bad cobbler or architect.
[nitpick]Making the building stand up is primarily the responsibility of the structural engineer, not the architect.[/nitpick]

Sorry, but I work in an architect's office. Please return to debating the badness (or not) of literature.


glass.
 

Coming from some one who has read the book, I say that his first book coming at the age of fifteen is of itself an accomplishment. That said I will wait to read anything else of his until he has experience as a person. Because writing is 100% the product of experience.
I am myself a struggling writer, with more of my poetry getting published than my stories so I can personally recognize his accomplishments being that he's nearly half my age.


The Movie on the other hand is questionable, though some of the actors which are in it make me think well of it. (Jeremy Irons).
 



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