Honestly - What is Eragon?

[Asmo]

aha! Maybe it´s over-vinegar-izing, perhaps!? No wonder I couldn´t Google it..

Asmo

 

[Merlion]

Holding up an object as sacrosanct merely because of its existence cheapens the creative process

First off, I never said anything about sacrosanct. Any work a person puts time thought and effort into has a certain degree of inherent value, just by virtue of that thought and effort. And by virtue of the enjoyment it gives to those who enjoy it.
Doesnt make it sacred. It just makes it incorect to state that a work is worthless valueless crap (in anything other than your persona opinion).


And this stance does not cheapen anything. Now the stance you and takyris and others have taken selectively cheapens the creative proccess by labeling some people's creative proccess as wrong bad and worthless because they dont meet certain criteria that certain people have layed down, or because they don't fit the opinion of the majority or whatever.

By your system all things must be valueless because the only way all things can be of equal value is if they hold no value at all since, collectively, some things are seen as having no value.

Uhh....ok. I just said that my system consists of everything *having* a basic value due to effort and thought put into it. I dont really care what is collectively seen...whats collectively seen doesnt alter reality. And some things may have more value than others due to having a wider impact etc...my point is just that saying that anything is worthless drivel, if effort and thought have been put into it and/or if anyone has ever enjoyed it, is incorrect.

That's a misconception on your part for which you need to take personal responsibility.

How is it a misconception? a creative work...especially a written work...is the producers thought and effort made manifest. Saying that its worthless crap is saying that that thought and effort was worthless crap.

 

[Mark CMG]

First off, I never said anything about sacrosanct. Any work a person puts time thought and effort into has a certain degree of inherent value, just by virtue of that thought and effort. And by virtue of the enjoyment it gives to those who enjoy it.

A work does not necessarily require thought and effort nor does it automatically bring enjoyment to anyone.

I just said that my system consists of everything *having* a basic value due to effort and thought put into it.

That, as noted above, is a false assumption.

How is it a misconception? a creative work...especially a written work...is the producers thought and effort made manifest. Saying that its worthless crap is saying that that thought and effort was worthless crap.

The one does not follow the other. Saying that your post is flawed does not mean I find you flawed.

 

[Merlion]

A work does not necessarily require thought and effort

I dont see how you can think or say this. Last time I looked writing a book required a good deal of both. And even if it were possible to write a book without thought and effort...and I dont see how it could be...without being there when its written, how can you know for sure?



Of course your going to say by the "quality" of it, but quality is subjective. Effort is not. thats my point. You can know with more or less unshakeble certainty that a published book had thought and effort put into it, and therefore has basic value for that reason. Anything beyond that is entirely a matter of opinion.

nor does it automatically bring enjoyment to anyone.

If its released to an audience of any size, there will be people who will enjoy it. Now yea if it never sees the light of day, or is only ever read or seen by 4 or 5 people, maybe none of them will enjoy it, but a work that gets published/shown in theatres etc etc is going to be enjoyed by substantial numbers of people.

That, as noted above, is a false assumption

As also noted above, it isnt. Its one you apparently find distasteful, or that some experience(s) of yours has thrown into doubt, but that doesnt change its truth.

The one does not follow the other. Saying that your post is flawed does not mean I find you flawed

Yea it does. Because my post is my thoughts, and my thoughts are me. Same with creative works, nine times out of ten.


And as an aside, beside the fact that I disagree with DEGRADING both a work itself, and the fact that it also degrades its creator by extension, theres the additonal fact that usualy such a stance also includes degrading anyone who likes/enjoys the work or feels its worthwhile, or at least degrading their "taste" and/or maturity and/or intelligence. This varies, and I havent seen it as much with you, but several others have essentially said not only are certain works indisputably worthless because they dont fit certain criteria, but anyone who likes them anyway is guilty of some mental or obersvational deficiency.






On a side note, I'm actually reading Eragon as we speak...about 40 pages in. So far I'm enjoying it thoroughly, and I find the command of language and structuring to be very good. There are obvious parallels and influences from Star Wars, but it doesnt appear to be the same story thus far, anymore than Star Wars is the same story as King Arthur...its just using the same structure. Thats the only thing I've found so far that could be seen as objectively negative...its a bit derivative...but I dont neccesarily even count that as a negative since the vast majority of fiction is at least somewhat derivative. There are only so many plots, and most characters are archtypal in nature.

 

[Mark CMG]

I do not believe further discussion of this on my part is likely to yield worthwhile results. Best of luck to you, Merlion, and we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[takyris]

Part of that convention schedule/speaking tour you mentioned in the Off-Topic forum? I trust that went well for you?

Actually, just an incredibly poorly timed vacation.

Last Tuesday, the wife and dude and I drove from Edmonton to Albuquerque, and this Tuesday, we drove back. Got back Thursday around midnight with a cold (compliments of the wife's folks), and then drugged myself silly so that I could sound coherent while appearing on the TV show that taped on Friday. The convention is today and tomorrow. I give a talk from 10:30 to noon, and then run a game from noon to 4:00.

Sort of a ridiculous weekend, frankly, but it's full of fun stuff.

 

[Mark CMG]

Actually, just an incredibly poorly timed vacation.

Last Tuesday, the wife and dude and I drove from Edmonton to Albuquerque, and this Tuesday, we drove back. Got back Thursday around midnight with a cold (compliments of the wife's folks), and then drugged myself silly so that I could sound coherent while appearing on the TV show that taped on Friday. The convention is today and tomorrow. I give a talk from 10:30 to noon, and then run a game from noon to 4:00.

Sort of a ridiculous weekend, frankly, but it's full of fun stuff.

Well, it sounds like it will all work out and I am glad for it. Be well.

 

[Merlion]

I do not believe further discussion of this on my part is likely to yield worthwhile results. Best of luck to you, Merlion, and we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

I dont really agree to disagree. And I'm not sure exactly what "worthwhile results" you mean....I think thats part of the problem, you guys are all a little to worried about the destination, when its the journey that matters, but whatever. The choice to continue or not is yours, but you havent presented any compelling evidence for your stance that something can be "simply crap" in any way other than your (perfectly valid) personal opinion.

 

[Merlion]

However, now that I'm well into the book (past 100 pages now), I'm curious to know what people think is so awful about it, since so far the only "complaint" I could see would be that the plot is borrowing heavily from Star Wars (again, not I thing I see as a negative, most stories borrow heavily from other stories).
The *quality* of the plot is fine, originality aside, and even in that area its hardly a carbon copy of Star Wars, there are many new or highly altered elements involved. Command of language is very good, structuring is good, I dont really see anything "bad" even were I to accept the notion that theres any such thing as bad outside of opinion..

 

[Berandor]

I do not believe further discussion of this on my part is likely to yield worthwhile results. Best of luck to you, Merlion, and we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

me, sometime after post #61.