D&D 5E Horde Breaker and Heavy Crossbow Loading Property Question

[Yunru]

What other action, on your turn, do you make a weapon attack other than the attack action?

Reactions, certain bonus actions (Swift quiver comes to mind).

 

[Sacrosanct]

Reactions, certain bonus actions (Swift quiver comes to mind).

thank you. I wasn't trying to be snarky, it was a legitimate question.

 

[Yunru]

thank you. I wasn't trying to be snarky, it was a legitimate question.

Yeah, it's quite edge case, pretty sure it's almost exclusively for Swift Quiver since weapon cantrips didn't exist in the PHB.

 

[Dausuul]

Hmm. There's an argument to be made that you could do this, but I'm inclined to read it as you do: If Horde Breaker is triggered by an action, bonus action, or reaction, then the Loading property will prevent you from getting the extra attack. (Though if you can somehow figure out a way to make an attack without using an action, bonus action, or reaction to do it, you can trigger Horde Breaker and you won't be blocked by Loading.)

Even with the more generous reading, though, you can only get away with this trick for a couple of levels. You definitely can't use Extra Attack with a crossbow, so the ranger is going to have to switch up for a longbow pretty soon anyway, or take the Crossbow Expert feat.

 

[Sidmandoo]

No it's not. In fact it's specifically worded such that it can trigger off of any action.

I am confused now. Horde Breaker cannot trigger off ANY action. It can only trigger off a "weapon attack," and a weapon attack is part of either an attack action, bonus action, or reaction. The loading property is applied to any attack action, bonus action, or reaction according to the rules. So how would it not apply to Horde Breaker? Genuinely asking here.

 

[Yunru]

I am confused now. Horde Breaker cannot trigger off ANY action. It can only trigger off a "weapon attack," and a weapon attack is part of either an attack action, bonus action, or reaction. The loading property is applied to any attack action, bonus action, or reaction.

Yes, but triggering off of an attack does not make it part of the action that attack belongs to.

 

[Dausuul]

Yes, but triggering off of an attack does not make it part of the action that attack belongs to.

If we were talking about a reaction, like a retaliation strike from Sentinel, this would be indisputably true: The reaction is its own thing, distinct from the action that triggered it. Same for an action triggering a bonus action. The bonus action is not part of the triggering action, it stands by itself.

But this isn't a reaction or a bonus action. It's just an attack, outside of any action, floating naked in the ether. That isn't a thing that normally ever happens in D&D, and the rules are not designed to consider such a thing (witness the way the Loading property is written). I think it makes more sense to treat the Horde Breaker attack as part of whatever action triggered it. Either reading is plausible according to the rules, and this way is consistent with similar abilities like Extra Attack.

 

[Sidmandoo]

But this isn't a reaction or a bonus action. It's just an attack, outside of any action, floating naked in the ether. That isn't a thing that normally ever happens in D&D, and the rules are not designed to consider such a thing (witness the way the Loading property is written).

This really sums it up the dilemma. It's not clear because Horde Breaker is never given an actual definition of what it is in its description. It isn't an action, bonus action, or reaction. It just 'is' in and of itself, so what to do with it?

I promise you I am not a rules lawyer, this just came up at my table and I found this gap. I am probably going to go with not allowing the second attack with the heavy crossbow, mostly because it makes sense from a real world perspective. If it can't be done in a multiattack situation, it does not make sense for it to be allowed in this pseudo-reactionary-bonus actioney-whatever-it-is situation with Horde Breaker. (yes, I know, "actioney" is not a word).

Appreciate the conversation from everyone. I pinged Jeremy Crawford on twitter to see if I could get a bite. Perhaps the master will chime in.

 

[Sidmandoo]

In all seriousness, I would originally rule the loading property means it overrrides the horde breaker ability. However, if a player wanted to make a ranger with a heavy crossbow as their theme, I would totally allow horde breaker to overrule the loading property because a) I don't think it would break anything and b) I don't see many rangers specializing in archery using the heavy crossbow, so I would totally support a theme the player wants.

I like your take on it. It probably doesn't break things (though it IS 2d10 if you get both hits). Would maybe reduce the Horde Breaker attack to 1d8 without modifier damage, though even that is just a couple of points. Just seems weird to be able to attack like this with a weapon that you practically have to get on your back and brace your legs against to load the string or use a crank, in the real world. lol.

 

[guachi]

I am confused now. Horde Breaker cannot trigger off ANY action. It can only trigger off a "weapon attack," and a weapon attack is part of either an attack action, bonus action, or reaction. The loading property is applied to any attack action, bonus action, or reaction according to the rules. So how would it not apply to Horde Breaker? Genuinely asking here.

You can trigger Horde Breaker off of Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade and those use the Cast a Spell action. Though you can't, of course, use either of those with a ranged weapon attack like shooting a crossbow.