D&D General "Hot Take": Fear is a bad motivator

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No. I remove hard-loss — you can't lose my game.

Your character, on the other hand, will lose a ton of stuff, important and personal. They will lose their heirloom sword, the vessel of their ancestors' spirits. They will lose their grimmoir, their Magnum Opus, all the research and breakthroughs they made to understand the greater laws of magic. They will lose their families, their sons and their lovers.

Oh God will they lose. The cruel world will chew them and spit them out, forever changed, and more often than not, changed to the worse.
You can do your worst, though, and I'm still going to win.
I don't see anything wrong with participation medals — the real medals are the friends we made along the way or something.
They're an illusion of competence that can mislead those who receive them into thinking that they are better at something than they are.
I'm not particularly interested in testing, whether the players can beat the game, and as a player, I can't say that I feel any importance in the fact that my character has survived the Tomb of Horrors.

What I am interested in is seeing how characters would react to hardships, how would they change and develop.
That all applies to games with PC death in them, though. A game with PC death in it doesn't have to focus on beating the game. And you can still see how characters would react to hardships and how they would develop. You'll get a more accurate reading, actually, since the fear of death will alter how a PC approaches a situation, and a player who doesn't fear PC death will rarely roleplay that as well as he would if he knows that he can lose his character.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, Monopoly is rank 20,535 out of 20,542 ranked games on BoardGameGeek, so calling that a paragon of good design doesn't seem like a strong argument. It's better than The Game of Life (rank 20,536), so I guess it's not the worst.


But I'll abstain on Diplomacy. I've never played it and it's ranked 614 (top 3% of all games), so either the mechanic is used well or the game's so good one flaw isn't worth mentioning.

(Although the most recent review I could find notes that "You need 7 players who are simultaneously ruthless and congenial, are willing to sacrifice half a day and are okay with practically guaranteed player elimination." Not an endorsement of the mechanic.)

Monopoly is the best selling board game of all time.
 


HJFudge

Explorer
My 2 cents here:

If there is no loss state, then there is no way to 'win'. In tabletop games I play, it is very possible to lose the campaign. The two hard loss states I have usually are TPK and severe failure to stop the bad-guy. I inform everyone of this during session 0. Everyone knows its possible to lose. We have had campaign losses before. I'd say about 1/3rd of the campaigns Ive played or ran have ended due to a Loss State. Note: We don't stop playing, we just start a new campaign. We as players do not lose out on game night or game time! Someone almost always has a campaign idea waiting in the wings to be tried out :)

I do not enjoy games where it is impossible to lose. Where whilst I may face minor setbacks or obstacles or loss, if I cannot truly LOSE the game then my choices feel empty. After all, any choice at all leads to an eventual victory in some form or another.

That said, this fear of losing is NOT what motivates me when I play or my players. Fear of loss might be in there for the characters, as in they fear being unable to save the world, losing their loved ones, whatever...but there are plenty of other motivators throughout the game that drive the party. These usually involve greed of one form or another. Getting that next level, or that next power, or that next item. Often it is also revenge for previous losses incurred that motivate the player. That long time NPC who burnt down our parties castle...we're gonna make him pay!

But again, if a game cannot be lost, I see no point in playing. If I wanted that, theres a book right there I can just read it. The end is known from the beginning and no decisions are of actual consequence except for one: The decision to just not play. There can be no triumph without real risk of losing the game.

For me, anyway.


EDIT: To be very clear, losing items, losing levels, losing prestige, losing abilities...these are all not true losses since they can be gained back simply by playing more. Nothing is LOST, they are only temporarily gone without. Only with a real negative end-state to the campaign and a risk of that negative end-state being reached is there actual LOSS in any sense for the PCs.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I do not enjoy games where it is impossible to lose. Where whilst I may face minor setbacks or obstacles or loss, if I cannot truly LOSE the game then my choices feel empty. After all, any choice at all leads to an eventual victory in some form or another.
Alright. Let's pick this apart some, then.

Is death the only form of loss you would consider permanent?

I argue that there are other forms of loss, and threat, with permanent effects, that while they might be interpretable as being focused on fear, any fear involved is a side, a byproduct. I've given various examples, but here's some in brief form:
Beloved NPC is hurt, killed, or corrupted
Personal goal becomes impossible (e.g. "become a professor at Strixhaven" is nixed if Strixhaven is destroyed)
Sophie's Choice (e.g. "if I save my mother, my nemesis will destroy the only evidence of his crimes")
What You Are in the Dark scenario (you could kill the rightful heir and become king...but can you live with the guilt?)
Agonizing over what to do (from the game I run: "Do I take an evil power to help someone I love, or have them keep it to avoid temptation?")
Imminent danger that may come to pass for others (e.g. a plague strikes your home city, if you succeed it's cured, if you fail many will die)
Tragic/painful sacrifice (your initial attack failed...but if you break the staff of power you worked SO hard to get, you might kill the BBEG)

None of these require that the character die, and they aren't really about fear, but rather about deciding what you value most, about deciding where your affections lie, or about seeing the things you're enthusiastic for suffer. In many cases, there's little or nothing that can be done to reverse the damage; you might rebuild from it, but whatever you build will be a new thing taking the old thing's place, not a sweet and simple resurrection of the old. Even if you redeem your beloved NPC friend, they'll never be quite the same, and they'll have to regain the trust of others. Even if you do manage to find a cure for the plague a year later, there's no way you can resurrect all of its victims, and the proverbial scars it will leave on the people and the land will linger for generations. If you fought hard to earn the crown, having to abdicate in order to save the people of your country from war could be a horribly devastating loss, even though all it does is remove a title from your name.

These, to my mind, are much more interesting losses than "your character dies." Obviously, that won't apply to everyone. But I have definitely seen, here and elsewhere, a trend toward saying that the ONLY loss that ever truly matters is character death, and everything else is unimportant. There's even a degree to which your own post can be read that way!
 

HJFudge

Explorer
To put simply: no death is not the only form of permanent loss. As I mentioned in my previous post, a negative campaign end state also represents a permanent loss and this does not have to equal the characters die. The characters can fail in such a way that for the campaign and there quest there is no recovery.

An actual play example. The heroes caught wind of the big bads plan to steal a powerful artifact. So they went to stop his forces. No one died but they did not end up getting to the place in time. They failed and the plot moved forward. A couple adventures later they found out the big bad was going to use that artifact to create the world engine, a horrific device that would put the world under a cloud of darkness and allow him to raise the dead as his slaves. The characters attempted to stop this creation but ended up choosing to abandon the task when word their home kingdom was under attack. They reasoned they'd stop it before it was activated. No one died but that quest failed.

They stopped the invasion of their home kingdom and then went back to stop the big bad from deploying the world engine. A couple died this time, a series of tough battles leading to a climactic duel with the big bad. They had x rounds to somehow stop the big bad from activating the world engine. They failed.

Thus was the world covered in darkness. The heroes were dead or captured and the land suffered for an age.

Campaign loss. But a gripping tale. Death happened but the loss was not due to that but the repeated failures to stop the big bads plans. If they had chosen differently at several points they would have had different outcomes and may have stopped the evil at several points but alas.

In this example it was the choices made that led to loss, ultimately. Later we had a follow on campaign in that same world called "from the ashes" with different characters set in the future, mankind was on the edge of extinction and this party's quest was to find a mythical portal to a new world, one free of darkness.
 

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
In Diplomacy if you're knocked out of the game as any country (which is the purpose), you are out. Same in Monopoly, the Game of Life, etc. If people want a narrative fiction-building approach without challenges and uncertainty or, gosh, even death for daring to be an "Adventurer" (Poor Magellan, he should have been a surveyor of estates rather than of the Earth) even when the current rules are favorable to their constant gain and guardianship, then what's the worth or reason in even referring to it as a "game"? Why go through theatrics of the mind when all the results are the same positive outcomes? Who's fooling who in this scenario? I find this whole topic, forgive me, rather bizarre from not only a designer's view but from a reality based reasoning. Is an RPG a game or not? If so there are winners and losers, monsters die by the thousands under your immersed PC's spells and melee. But it's still a game and thus you are still a target for those who you haven't killed, and the DM is the fair arbiter in this bi-lateral exchange of who, what, where, when, why and how. "Yo Goliath! Meet David's Stone!"
Defining a game as "having winners and losers" sounds like super weird. By that definition, most videogames ain't games, as you can't lose. Dwarf Fortress, then, is also not a game, because you can't win.

That all applies to games with PC death in them, though. A game with PC death in it doesn't have to focus on beating the game. And you can still see how characters would react to hardships and how they would develop. You'll get a more accurate reading, actually, since the fear of death will alter how a PC approaches a situation, and a player who doesn't fear PC death will rarely roleplay that as well as he would if he knows that he can lose his character.
I doubt that I'd get a more accurate reading, since being afraid for one's life and being afraid for a fictional character aren't exactly comparable things.

And the thing is, I don't want players feel like they're risking anything. After all, why the hell a player should be afraid of losing their character, if the player and the character are on the opposite sides of the barricades?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I doubt that I'd get a more accurate reading, since being afraid for one's life and being afraid for a fictional character aren't exactly comparable things.
It wouldn't mirror real life, but it would be more accurate than without it as a possibility.
And the thing is, I don't want players feel like they're risking anything. After all, why the hell a player should be afraid of losing their character, if the player and the character are on the opposite sides of the barricades?
Afraid is the wrong word for a lot of us. Feel like I'm taking a risk with my PC's life sometimes? Yes. Afraid of losing the character? No. Losing a character sucks, but playing without that risk would suck more for me.
 

Defining a game as "having winners and losers" sounds like super weird. By that definition, most videogames ain't games, as you can't lose. Dwarf Fortress, then, is also not a game, because you can't win.
OT a bit, but I am not consigning games to the dustbin of history due to some social experiment. This is what (below), in part, is eradicated through the objection of win-lose, contest,competition; and with it goes critical thinking, social and scientific leaps (Game Theory, Play Theory, Economic Theory. et al) progress and learning advantage advances through these that are noted as fact, not feelings. I embrace the past that forwarded us to the present It is part and parcel of over 2,000 years of human endeavor in this area and I will not toss it to a ditch, and its thousands of examples and billions of adherents and designers. Good day.

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Mod Edit: Added the spoiler block, because that block of stuff was waaaay too long for whatever point is was making ~Umbran
 
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