House rule for damage and creatures too big.

[HeinorNY]

A player of my group always complain about being too unbelievable that a medium fighter can kill a colossal dragon, that it is the same as a GIJoe killing you with a needle.
Well I always say it's a game of fantasy, and reality is not an important issue, etc etc.
Then he came up with a house rule for that. I thought maybe It could work, but did not adopted it in my game yet. The rule is the following:
A lethal weapon deals lethal damage to a creature at least two sizes bigger, same with non-lethal weapons. After that, lethal weapons deal non-lethal damage, and non-lethal weapons deal no damage at all. So a medium longsword deals only non-lethal damage to a Purple Worm and a great red wyrm, but deals lethal damage to any huge, large, medium, small .... creatures.
What's your opinion on that crazy rule?
Do you know any house rule out there that covers that issue?
Thanks.

 

[Starman]

Well, PCs being able to kill colossol dragons is part of the schtick of D&D. PCs are supposed to be larger than life heroes. If you want to dramatically change that, you might want to try Ken Hood's Grim'n'Gritty rules. I haven't checked out the latest version, but the version I have read gave larger creatures a lot more hit points than smaller creatures, as well as just being a deadlier ruleset overall.

Starman

 

[genshou]

If you really look at it, it does make sense.

Let's look at a great wyrm red dragon compared to a stock human guard (War 1). The human has an average of 4 hp; the dragon has an average of 660. That's 165 times the amount the human gets. It takes 14 damage to outright kill that human at full hp. How many attacks do you know of that can deal 670 damage?

Then there's the difficulty in getting in a good hit. The human warrior probably has an AC of
10 (13 when wearing his hide armor), whereas the dragon has a 41 (39 of which is natural armor). Most attacks can't even get past the dragon's scales and thick hide. Those that do are like 2.5-inch blades jabbing into the dragon. How many of those can you take before you go down?

Given the amount of damage a Medium-size character is capable of doing without any magic, I don't see the problem you have with larger creature size not being strong enough.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I can think of a few ways to kill you with a needle-- they'd just take me awhile.

Fighters with non-magical longswords would take a pretty long time to hack a dragon down without their magical support.

Explain this to your friend. And then begin secreting needle-bearing GI Joes around his personal quarters. Paranoia is fun.

 

[genshou]

I can think of a few ways to kill you with a needle-- they'd just take me awhile.

Fighters with non-magical longswords would take a pretty long time to hack a dragon down without their magical support.

Explain this to your friend. And then begin secreting needle-bearing GI Joes around his personal quarters. Paranoia is fun.

And how long does it take an adventuring party of 4 to take town a CR 13 dragon (e.g. adult blue, size H)? Apparently, only two rounds in my old gaming group. Then again, the fighter did get two crits, and he did have +7 Str and a +3 greatsword...

Usually, it doesn't go that quick even when the poor innocent dragon is attacked by "heroic" characters. We were just lucky (and our Fighter was played by a munchkin of the worst sort).

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

Size

I think we're overestimating the size of collossal creatures. A collossal creature is listed as being thirty feet long. Watch a football game - 10 yards isn't too incredibly far.

Unless the creature has a striking resemblence to a bowling ball, a sword or spear should be able to make a significant injury. Even taking into account that a dragon's tail is as long as the main body (30 ft., or a 60 ft. total length), it can't be overly fat or meaty because it flies. The armor is tough, but if you pierce it the wound will be more than a pin-prick. A longspear is two to three times the height of a human, so lets say somewhere between 10 and 15 feet long. That's 1/3rd to 1/2 the size of the collossal creature. I'm sure if someone stabbed you with a 2-3 ft. spear, you would notice.

It's like saying "There is no way a group of cavemen with spears could take out a wooly mammoth - the thing is enormous with a thick hide." Whales are gargantuan creatures with +9 natural armor and hit points in the mid 100s, but they could be killed by fisherman in boats with handheld harpoons.

I think the Grim and Gritty system is good, although the mechanics aren't exactly how I would do things. The concept is in the right place and I agree that more damage should be done through user skill rather than random chance.

 

[genshou]

I think we're overestimating the size of collossal creatures. A collossal creature is listed as being thirty feet long. Watch a football game - 10 yards isn't too incredibly far.

Unless the creature has a striking resemblence to a bowling ball, a sword or spear should be able to make a significant injury. Even taking into account that a dragon's tail is as long as the main body (30 ft., or a 60 ft. total length), it can't be overly fat or meaty because it flies. The armor is tough, but if you pierce it the wound will be more than a pin-prick. A longspear is two to three times the height of a human, so lets say somewhere between 10 and 15 feet long. That's 1/3rd to 1/2 the size of the collossal creature. I'm sure if someone stabbed you with a 2-3 ft. spear, you would notice.

It's like saying "There is no way a group of cavemen with spears could take out a wooly mammoth - the thing is enormous with a thick hide." Whales are gargantuan creatures with +9 natural armor and hit points in the mid 100s, but they could be killed by fisherman in boats with handheld harpoons.

I think the Grim and Gritty system is good, although the mechanics aren't exactly how I would do things. The concept is in the right place and I agree that more damage should be done through user skill rather than random chance.

Three points here:
First, if you're going to debunk an argument by using numbers, please look them up before you waste all that time typing all that up. Colossal creatures range from 64 feet upward, not thirty-two. That would be Gargantuan. What Colossal creatures do have according to the 3.5 SRD is a 30-foot by 30-foot fighting space–apparently another of 3.5's failings. I can't imagine a creature that large penned up in such a small area during combat being able to dodge anything. It gets even worse with Colossal (long) creatures. How in the nine hells of Baator do you expect a 70-foot long dragon to fit in a 30-foot by 30-foot fighting space?

Also, while a longspear may be 10 feet long, how much of it is actually going into the dragon's body? If you ever plan to use the weapon again, I hope no more than 1 foot. Any further and you'll probably snap the haft of any primarily wooden weapon.

Lastly, have you ever looked at a picture of a D&D dragon? I'd hardly describe them as lean and aerodynamic. Remember, it's fantasy. Creatures that large should be pinned by their own weight, and flying is just out of the question. So you can't use the argument that something overly fat or meaty can't fly.

 

[Ferrix]

Yet they aren't. Too much external logic applied to a game with it's own internal logic and rules.

Play the game.

 

[genshou]

Yet they aren't. Too much external logic applied to a game with it's own internal logic and rules.

Play the game.

Your reply could be to a great deal of things posted previously–please specify what you are replying to so we know what you're trying to say.

 

[Aeric]

All physics aside, I don't think the proposed house rule is a bad idea. I would also say that Bane weapons are always considered lethal towards the intended target regardless of the size. Failing that, maybe you could trade that extra 2d6 in for a lethal rating on the normal damage.

Getting a colossal dragon to 0 HP through non-lethal damage just means you now have a subdued colossal dragon on your hands. And if 1e taught us anything, there is a market for subdued dragons in any large town or city.