How a DM can counter cheesy PC tactics w/o using cheesy DM tactics.

[Brown Jenkin]

A wyvern
A giant of some sort (Hill giant I think)
Two Ogres
A band of about 10 Rogues (no idea on their levels)
2 Giant spiders

We weren't the same levels on every encounter, just incase you might be wondering why such a difference in CRs.

On at least one of these encounters (I think the Ogre one) we didn't have Blindsight at the time. I would hold the coin (as opposed to the Rogue) and open my hand to expose the Darkness. The Rogue would ready for the light to appear again. So when it went back to my turn, I would Move-Equiv to close my hand with the coin in it. Darkness is gone, Rogue's attack goes off. Then I Move-Equiv to open my hand. Darkness is back, monsters can't see.

I will discard the Ogre one as Blindsight was not part of this. This could be done with any darkness spell.

For the others
1. Wyvern: Where were you fighting this? A Wyvern flys and should be above the fray dropping down on the non-darkened characters with Fly-By Attack. How was this tactic effective? If it was trapped indoors unable to fly that is your DMs fault for not properly utilizing the creatures abilities.

2. Hill(?) Giant. Not very bright, an appropriate time to use this tactic, also keeps the giant from pummeling you.

3. Band of 10 Rogues. I am curious on this one. If they were played inteligently this tactic should have only had limited use. They have uncanny dodge so can't be sneak attacked and there should have been 2-3 per character. This should have been a good fight unless they were way underpowered. The Rogue would have to stay away from the rest of the group though or risk penalizing his own party as well.

4. 2 Giant Spiders. Why were they sticking around and fighting? Unlike the dim hill giant these should have had the animal instincts to flee once things started going badly. Not a bad place to use the tactic though.

For me this comes out to 2/4 where this tactic would prove very usefull. Then again Fireball will come in usefull just as much. Doesn't seem to me that this is overpowering so far, and with my list above and good DM tactics I don't see where the problem is.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That'll teach me to believe what I read on message boards. . . .

Somebody else thought that earlier in the thread, but the MM doesn't say anything about it. Vermin are affected normally by SA and criticals.

I think the confusion is caused by vermin's lack of an Intelligence score. That's similar to one quality of constructs and undead; since those other types are immune to crits, people subconsciously assign the same quality to vermin.

[coding]

 

[Vexed]

My players also use this spell on a constant basis. It has made things at times difficult for me (DM) as spells like invisibility, darkness, hide skills, move silently (esp. for rouges/assassins) virtually worthless by the power of the spell.
I do not take any spell away or "ban" any spell that has been published in a d20 book. My players (as I) view nothing is "too powerful" if everyone has access. You shouldnt punish your players for finding something that works for them by the rules. Limiting something you view as "unbalanced" will never end, and there are always too many perspectives that come into play. But that is another thread... So I had to find a way to combat this using the system at hand and I have found if you look hard enough you can counter anything eventually without totally "cheesing".

"Blindisght" -This spell grants the Blindsight feat. The target creature gains sensitivity to vibrations, so that it maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. The target creatures senses extend to a 30 ' radius, and the creature need not make a spot or listen checks to notice creatures within this range. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant, though the creature can't discern ethereal beings."

So this is a very powerful spell, and at first I was very frustrated as it gives pcs what one of my party members calls "Daredevil" powers. A few things I do now are use dispel magic obviously, as it is common. Ethereal jaunt/etherealness works. And finally, when I make the decision that someone has heard/seen the pcs fight a wizard shows up that can cast the 7th level spell "Complete Invisibility" from Baston Press "Spells and Magic"...

Complete Invisibility- "As improved invisibility, except that the subject gains a +30 move silently checks and cannot be detected with the detect magic, see invisibility, true seeing spells or other magical means. In addition, the subject cannot be detected with blindsight, scent, tremorsense or other similar abilities".

Hope this helps your dm against you guys... or vice/versa if you find the situation reversed...

 

[Drunken_Master]

Well first of all, as a DM I have everyone that can't see in the dark close their eyes. If ever they move out of the darkened area or the dark area disappears, I tell that individual to open his eyes... An ogre that is in a dark area without Blindsight is likely to go berserk (ex. move in random directions swinging around his club yelling like a mad ogre!) Why you ask? Imagine if you were to suddenly go blind... how would you feel? Imagine you had an intelligence of 6 or what ever an ogre has... I don't allow a rogue to use a sneak attack using her blindsight... Sure the rogue uses his 6th sense to know where his enemy is, but how does he know where his critical spots are... Also, the ogre going about like a mad ogre has a chance of hitting what's around him using the rules for hitting an invisible target with a -4 circumstance bonus since he's not really conscious of what might be there.

Keep in mind that the rest of the party is affected by darkness, and although this tactic might work, Role play wise it shouldn't happen too often... If I were a player, let's say Barbarian or Fighter for example, I wouldn't like the idea of the Rogue getting in on all the action...

 

[dkilgo]

Using this tactic all the time IS cheesy.

I had a character that, until recently, had a cloak of improved invisibility. He could only use for 10 rounds a day and it was command word activated. He also had boots of speed which gave him that nice +4 to AC, and the extra partial action. Oh, did I mention that he was a rogue. These items are not unreasonable for any character, but...

But, everytime combat came around he imidiately activated his boots, and went invisible. By moving silently he was able to move around and slaughter just about any creature he encountered. Heck, he faced 5 fiendish trolls with one other party member, and wiped the floor with them. Ask kreynolds, it was nasty.

Eventually the whole tactic got really boring because combat became very monotinous, and kreynolds was not having much fun tryig to counter this tactic. Granted it is not entirely difficult to counter this, but due to the campaign situations it was.

I eventually gave up the tactic because the fun had been stripped from the game at the time. It was an abuse of a priviledge, and a mistake that will, hopefully, never happen again.

Think on that. You might think that this tactic is fun at the moment, but eventually you will end up just like me. I was missing the fun in the whole game.

All I am trying to say is that maybe you need to come up with more varied tactics that keep the spice in the game. The game is not always about winning every battle. It is about how you went about it, and the roleplay involved.

Have fun!

P.S.
If you want something cheesy try having an amulet of heal that is command word activated, and can be used unlimited times per day. Costly, but also cheesy. The DM is still kicking himself in the backside for that one.

 

[FlimFlam]

You are probably right dkilgo. It is getting a bit boring now. I just think it would be foolish though to give up on a tactic that works so well. Winning a combat by using cheesy tactics = boring. However, gaining easy exp = fun. Hehe.

I will discard the Ogre one as Blindsight was not part of this. This could be done with any darkness spell.

For the others
1. Wyvern: Where were you fighting this? A Wyvern flys and should be above the fray dropping down on the non-darkened characters with Fly-By Attack. How was this tactic effective? If it was trapped indoors unable to fly that is your DMs fault for not properly utilizing the creatures abilities.

This is from memory, so bare with me. I may have forgotten some parts. First, we were aware of the Wyvern before it noticed us. At first, we wanted to get around it w/o encountering it, but we were travelling with NPCs and one of them ended up getting spotted by the Wyvern (who was out looking for food). The rest of us were hidden in the forest nearby. When the Wyvern went after the NPC, we gave chase to save him. We got a few pot shots off from range. The NPC got away and the Wyvern flew back towards us. It came in for a fly-by attack, and this is when we darknessed it. By this time, we probably knocked it down to half (I am guessing here) from the ranged shots. Since it was dark, it's movement was restricted, so we were able to pick it off before it flew away. I think the Rogue did most of the damage in melee (in the darkness). The rest of us were out of the darkness, and when the Wyvern finally emerged, we finished it off with ranged attacks.

One more thing, and we may have played this part wrong... The Wyvern did a Fly-By Attack. It swooped down, and did an attack, then swooped away. However, since it swooped away, it went through a threat range and the person it attacked (I think it was the Rogue) got an AoO on it. Was this right? I don't think it mentioned about Fly-By Attack negating AoO. Which I found as strange. It's like Spring Attack, but you still get an AoO against the critter. The whole point of Fly-By Attack is to swoop in, hit, and swoop out. Seems like you shouldn't get an AoO on this, otherwise what is the point?

The other thing is, it's movement was restricted, so it couldn't "swoop" out in the same round as it "swooped" in. Again, we may have played this wrong. It was the DMs first time DMing 3E.

2. Hill(?) Giant. Not very bright, an appropriate time to use this tactic, also keeps the giant from pummeling you.

I thought so too. Things turned in our favor when the Hill Giant dropped it's club (we play, if you roll nat 1 you need to make a Dex check vs DC 10 or you drop your weapon). Since it was dark, he couldn't see where he dropped it. And I was right next to him (the Cleric) but also was blinded. So both of us were fumbling around looking for the club, hehe. Eventually I made my way out of the darkness while the Rogue went after him. I forget the reason, but the Rogue had to drop the coin for some reason (he wanted the do something, and the DM said he would have to drop the coin). So the Hill Giant did eventually make his way out of the darkness, but at this point he was so far gone. He made a break for the hills but our Sorcerer Fireballed him to finish him off.

3. Band of 10 Rogues. I am curious on this one. If they were played inteligently this tactic should have only had limited use. They have uncanny dodge so can't be sneak attacked and there should have been 2-3 per character. This should have been a good fight unless they were way underpowered. The Rogue would have to stay away from the rest of the group though or risk penalizing his own party as well.

We caught about half of them in darkness. They were lower level Rogues, so they may not have had Uncanny Dodge. Even so, our Rogue was higher level then them and I believe if you are like 4 levels higher (I forget the exact number) then you can sneak attack even if they have uncanny dodge.

But anyway, about half were caught in the darkness and the other half we had to deal with normally (Spells, melee, etc.) without the darkness.

4. 2 Giant Spiders. Why were they sticking around and fighting? Unlike the dim hill giant these should have had the animal instincts to flee once things started going badly. Not a bad place to use the tactic though.

They tried to flee. Actually, I think one did get away and came back later with friends to attack us. Both encounters happened at night time when we were resting. We were sleeping INSIDE the darkness too. We still had one person up watching for enemies, he was outside of the darkness. When he alerted us, the Rogue just moved in and covered the spiders in darkness. Since their movement is hampered in darkness, it was hard for them to run away.

For me this comes out to 2/4 where this tactic would prove very usefull. Then again Fireball will come in usefull just as much. Doesn't seem to me that this is overpowering so far, and with my list above and good DM tactics I don't see where the problem is.

The point is, darkness + blindsight helped in each circumstance. It might not have been the only way we could have one, but it did play a major role. Either allowing for sneak attacks or hindering movement and escape.

 

[dkilgo]

edit delete post.... sorry.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

"Blindisght" -This spell grants the Blindsight feat. The target creature gains sensitivity to vibrations, so that it maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. The target creatures senses extend to a 30 ' radius, and the creature need not make a spot or listen checks to notice creatures within this range. Invisibility and darkness are irrelevant, though the creature can't discern ethereal beings."

IMO, the spell should be ~5th level as written. I particularly find fault that little part about "need not make a spot or listen checks". That is a very significant ability that not even True Seeing provides. Therefore this spell should be about the same level.

When the PCs reach 9th level, there will be many, many ways to counter this tactic.

 

[dkilgo]

The Blindsight spell might possibly need to be raised in level, but as it stands it is a 3rd level spell. The spell could be countered simply with a Silence spell (2nd lvl.) targeted on something that the character might be wearing. Hence, in a 15 ft. radius he is still blind. Now would he be able to see past that 15 ft. silenced area since the range of blindsight is a 30 ft. radius?

 

[AuraSeer]

[...]Hence, in a 15 ft. radius he is still blind. Now would he be able to see past that 15 ft. silenced area since the range of blindsight is a 30 ft. radius?

No. If you're standing inside a zone of magical silence, you cannot hear anything, even noises that are made outside the area.

It's a DM call on whether Silence blocks this type of blindsight at all, but if it does, the victim would lose blindsight entirely. The question then becomes, how do you know where to target the Silence if you can't see the rogue?