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How about alignment?

What from of Alignment should exist in 5e?

  • Alignment should Die in a Fire

    Votes: 39 23.9%
  • Old School: Law, Neutral, Chaos

    Votes: 9 5.5%
  • AD&D: 9 Alignments

    Votes: 75 46.0%
  • 4e/WHFRPG style chain of 5

    Votes: 10 6.1%
  • d20 Modern Allegience system

    Votes: 13 8.0%
  • Something else (Please elaborate)

    Votes: 17 10.4%

Mattachine

Adventurer
Riiiiight, because rebranding "Neutral" as "Unaligned" makes alllll kindsa difference.

Yes, it does make a lot of difference. "Neutral", in D&D, has come to be associated with four very different things:

* Neutral is True Neutral, seeker of balance
* Neutral is Nature, letting the law of the wild rule
* Neutral is Disinterested (unaligned)
* Neutral is Unintelligent (alignment for things with no reasoning ability)

Which Neutral was a given PC? How come the other alignments didn't have four distinct meanings?
 

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steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Yes, it does make a lot of difference. "Neutral", in D&D, has come to be associated with four very different things:

* Neutral is True Neutral, seeker of balance
* Neutral is Nature, letting the law of the wild rule
* Neutral is Disinterested (unaligned)
* Neutral is Unintelligent (alignment for things with no reasoning ability)

Due respect, Mattachine, you're splitting hairs. What did it mean to the PC? And the context of the particular DM's game? That's what matters.

"* Unaligned is True Neutral, seeker of balance
* Unaligned is Nature, letting the law of the wild rule
* Unaligned is Disinterested (unaligned)
* Unaligned is Unintelligent (alignment for things with no reasoning ability)"

Yes, oh yes. I see the difference now.

Which Neutral was a given PC?

Whichever the PLAYER decides it is...within the framework of alignment the DM has established for his/her game.

How come the other alignments didn't have four distinct meanings?

Because the "other alignments" weren't the center/intersection of all other ethos and mores?

Just guessin'
--SD
 


Ahnehnois

First Post
Not meaning to single you out, Ahnehnois, several people have mentioned this "Allegiance" system....from other games....and that's great...For other games. We're talking about D&D.

D&D has Alignment.

If you [the collective "you", not singling anyone out!] want to play games with these alternate systems...then play THEM! Noone's stopping you!

Saying, I want to play D&D but I want D&D to be like this, other, system...I just...I'm at a loss...I just don't understand it. Play other games if you don't like what D&D has.

End scene.
--SD
A couple of issues first. D&D has alignment, but it's pretty routinely ignored, so changing it is not necessarily un-D&D. We're not talking about fighters with powers here!

Second, I'm advocating expanding it, not taking away. All the original alignments remain possible allegiances.

Third, the detect alignment spells and their ilk cause all kinds of balance and plausibility issues and have started many arguments and I think making them officially optional would make plenty of long-time D&D-ers happy.

Fourth, if I were stuck with alignment, I would advocate the nine alignments and just go back to ignoring them most of the time and referring to alignment subtypes, the way I have been. Why not build this approach into the rules, since people are doing it anyway. In essence, D&D as it's played has a lot more in common with the "other system" then you seem to be suggesting it.

Would an XP-less option be similarly a misguided attempt to bring in elements of another un-D&D game? Lots of people play D&D without experience points, but it's presented as dogma in the rules.

I don't think an allegiance system would unreasonably change the fundamentals of the game.
 

Serendipity

Explorer
...want to play games with these alternate systems...

Those games with alternate systems which are, by the way, derived from D&D? Those games?

No offense, but taking alignment out of D&D or replacing it with an alternate system does not make it "Not D&D." At least, not universally. Certainly not by me, or I suspect, many others.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
A couple of issues first. D&D has alignment, but it's pretty routinely ignored, so changing it is not necessarily un-D&D.

I would wager to say it is not so "routinely" ignored as you suggest. Whether or not it came into play, it was a part of the characters and system...even 4e, in a limited fashion.

And yes, for a game that has always had an Alignment system, "changing it" IS "un-D&D."

Second, I'm advocating expanding it, not taking away. All the original alignments remain possible allegiances.

Then why are they not "alignments"...How is this any different? Other than some arbitrary semantic difference?

Third, the detect alignment spells and their ilk cause all kinds of balance and plausibility issues and have started many arguments and I think making them officially optional would make plenty of long-time D&D-ers happy.

You realize you're talking to the guy that suggested/posted a whole buncha different alignment-in-game "options", right?

As for the Detect alignment spells...who said anything about them? I have never, in my years of playing run into "balance and plausibility issues" because of Detect Evil...or Protection from Evil...or whatever.

The rules are not responsibile for making the game idiot, powergamer, min-maxer, unimaginative, rules lawyer, bad-sport, immature or just plain stupid proof. That's the DM's job.

Fourth, if I were stuck with alignment, I would advocate the nine alignments and just go back to ignoring them most of the time and referring to alignment subtypes, the way I have been.

Orrrr, preferably, with the new system, you could just "opt out" of alignment in your games from the get go. While others could use as many as they like. Poh-tay-to, poh-tah-toe.

Why not build this approach into the rules, since people are doing it anyway. In essence, D&D as it's played has a lot more in common with the "other system" then you seem to be suggesting it.

I honestly, and respectfully, disagree. "as it's played" by you, perhaps.

Would an XP-less option be similarly a misguided attempt to bring in elements of another un-D&D game?

Yes. Unequivocally. Yes, it would.

Lots of people play D&D without experience points, but it's presented as dogma in the rules.

Because, the D&D game, from the dawn of its incarnation, has had XP. And, again, I question your assertion/definition of "lots of people".

I don't think an allegiance system would unreasonably change the fundamentals of the game.

Probably wouldn't. But that does not negate the fact that doing so is not D&D. It is not necessary for a game that has "alignment" incorporated from its inception.

Call it "allegiance" and everyone will feel all warm and fuzzy and not put upon by the ever-so constricting shackles of the wicked, nasssty, false "alignmentsssessss"?

Nonsense. Nonsense, I say.

--SD
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Those games with alternate systems which are, by the way, derived from D&D? Those games?

Those games. I don't know what they are, but yes, I assume they are derived form D&D. And how exactly does that make their terms and systems better/should supplant D&D's?

No offense, but taking alignment out of D&D or replacing it with an alternate system does not make it "Not D&D." At least, not universally. Certainly not by me, or I suspect, many others.

None taken. And no offense in return. But it certainly does...for me, and I suspect, many others.
 

pemerton

Legend
Saying, I want to play D&D but I want D&D to be like this, other, system...I just...I'm at a loss...I just don't understand it. Play other games if you don't like what D&D has.
I think that this is a pretty unreasonable thing to say. There have always been debates about the proper place of alignment in D&D.

Back in an early number of White Dwarf, Lewis Pulsipher criticised the move from 3 to 9 alignments. In the mid-80s (#101, I think) Dragon ran an article about how to take alignment out of the game without disrupting the mechanics.

I personally think that 9-point alignment is ludicrous. It corresponds to no real-world system of either moral description or moral advocacy. As presented by Gygax in AD&D, it expressly draws upon contemporary moral and political notions (the rights set out in the Declaration of Independence, and notions of human rights) - causing endless problems when these are then applied to a quintessentially premodern archetype, the paladin.

On the assumption that D&D will continue to have alignment, I prefer either classic Law/Chaos alignment or its slightly more detailed 4e alternative (for which I voted in the poll). Unlike 9-point alignment these systems make it clear that the alignment system is embedded in a fictional cosmology (Moorcockian Law vs Chaos, on in the case of 4e the Gods vs the Primordials/Demons), and make no pretense to the system being any sort of general tool for moral evaluation or description.
 


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