How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[Camelot]

I DM by the philosophy that the players aren't made for the campaign, the campaign is made for the players. If the majority of your players are melee characters, don't set them up against so many flying creatures unless you have a way for them to win. If you have mostly ranged characters, adjust to that by using flying monsters that they can fight.

Killing the players is not fun. Almost killing them is.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm... actually my group only consisted of 3 players at Lvl 1 when they attacked irontooth and survived (ok, i gave them their lvl 2 utility powers when they were brought down before the last 3 kobolds)

the fight would have been easy if they had retreated in the middle of the fight. And with a controler (the role they lacked) it would have been even easier.

Fact is: fleeing is and should be an option when facing overwhelming odds. This is part of the fun. Alternatively surrender is another option which can be fun sometimes. Even when it happens the first time. Maybe an insight check or perception or int chack can be allowed to recognize them as overwhelming odds.

Fleeing is a good strategy if it can work.

Our group had one of the outside Kobolds from the first encounter flee into the caves and when the PCs entered (without taking a rest because they did not want this Kobold to warn others), the foes inside were ready. Our group also had one of the players use his Encounter class and racial powers in the outside encounter, even though they weren't really needed (his rationale was that every single Encounter power was always supposed to be used in every single encounter, an early 4E player misconception). Even though I had Irontooth and some of the other Kobolds come around the outside of the cave (and hence, enter the fight 3 or 4 rounds later), the PCs ended up getting surrounded and quickly trounced.

There were 13 foes outside and 17 foes inside in a scenario effectively designed for starting players and first level PCs (so yes, tough scenarios for when players are not quite familiar with the game system and its nuances is not really good adventure design either, IMO).

So sure, if the DM plays it like WOW where foes 20 feet away will not attack until attacked, it's pretty easy. If played plausibly (since most foes can see or hear many of the PCs a high percentage of the time), the PCs are outnumbered by 3 to 1 in two back to back encounters and the second encounter had 10 same level minions, 3 same level normal foes, 2 n+1 foes, and 2 n+2 foes.

Note: Our players also were extremely lucky in the outside encounter, hitting probably 80% of the time due to sheer luck. So when they headed into the caves, they were not bloodied or in need of a rest other than a few encounter powers. As players, they did not yet have the experience to tell them whether to rest up or not, they were concerned with the tactical element of stopping a fleeing foe of warning others. A typical concern that the designers should be aware of if they playtested the module to any significant extent.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My players rested outside and were careful about beeing surrunded.

No, usually monsters recognize that they are attacked, especially if some monster can raise the alarm (my players couldn´t stop the kobold running inside, so the knew that the enemy is warned and running hastily behind it won´t do it)

Maybe this encounter is a bit hard... especially for players inexperienced with RPG in general. It has nothing to do with 4e design though. In every other RPG (except your beloved WOW) it is the same: think before you run into a kobolds home and take precautions and dnon´t get surrounded.

edit: also the encounter was written as attacks in two waves and a chieftain that is not that smart... if DM´s ignore such assumptions... well then they must modify those encounters.

 

[the Jester]

Not if it is designed as that to be a strong possibility.

Consider it a matter of probability. There are 100 thousand 4E groups playing the module (in the case of 4E adventures). With a normal distribution of player ability, drive, character design, etc., some small percentage of groups will have a TPK with any above average difficulty encounter. But when that percentage becomes high (which it did for H1), then there is a design flaw.

It's not a feature when a significant majority of groups have a TPK or near-TPK, it's only a feature when a very small minority of groups have this occur.

Or else it was designed as a tough encounter.

Not a flaw. A decision.

 

[KarinsDad]

Maybe this encounter is a bit hard... especially for players inexperienced with RPG in general. It has nothing to do with 4e design though. In every other RPG (except your beloved WOW) it is the same: think before you run into a kobolds home and take precautions and dnon´t get surrounded.

Actually, it has everything to do with 4E design.

That was the first 4E public adventure ever (outside of some early prototype convention ones) that the vast majority of new 4E players would experience. It had a level 6 encounter located relatively close to a large level 1 encounter.

A level 6 encounter is outside of the recommendations of the DMG for level 1 PCs.

A hard encounter is n+2 to n+4.

This was n+5.

Sorry, but that's totally ridiculous for a first time ever adventure for a new game system.

And it has nothing to do with experienced RPGers. Every player at my table has varying levels of RPG experience (most of them well over a decade). It had to do with a too powerful encounter put into a first module game adventure before the players had an opportunity to understand how to play the game system and to understand how their individual PCs could best work together.

I'm glad your uber players managed it with only 3 PCs. Course, I seriously have to wonder what other bones you threw at them. Your story sounds extremely suspect since the action economy between foes and PCs nearly doubles in your scenario. An extra second level utility power each really doesn't make up for 2 missing PCs.

edit: also the encounter was written as attacks in two waves and a chieftain that is not that smart... if DM´s ignore such assumptions... well then they must modify those encounters.

Actually, I did run it in two waves. I even set it up so that some Kobolds could not get to the PCs during certain rounds. It didn't really matter.

 

[keterys]

This like the Tomb of Horrors debate? Where getting through without deaths basically implied cheating, and multiple TPKs were actually fairly likely, and perhaps a majority didn't even finish it?

 

[keterys]

Actually, it has everything to do with 4E design.

That was the first 4E public adventure ever (outside of some early prototype convention ones) that the vast majority of new 4E players would experience. It had a level 6 encounter located relatively close to a large level 1 encounter.

A level 6 encounter is outside of the recommendations of the DMG for level 1 PCs.

A hard encounter is n+2 to n+4.

This was n+5.

Sorry, but that's totally ridiculous for a first time ever adventure for a new game system.

So, just so I'm clear... the system design says "Don't do that" and when it was done, it was bad... and you're saying that has something to do with the system design? Seems to me like it's just validating what the system says. Y'know, don't do that.

I am curious what the percentage of deaths and TPKs from that fight actually is, though... I mean, I really didn't hear that many complaints about it except in one thread on a message board with I want to say under a hundred responses.

And it has nothing to do with experienced RPGers.

It does seem a bit odd that your experienced RPGers rushed into a kobold den, historically known to be filled with traps, without preparation.

It's also a bit unfortunate that the experienced DM chose to incite their behavior by having an enemy flee towards all those extra dangers, despite knowing they should rest before going in.

 

[Neuroglyph]

I DM by the philosophy that the players aren't made for the campaign, the campaign is made for the players. If the majority of your players are melee characters, don't set them up against so many flying creatures unless you have a way for them to win. If you have mostly ranged characters, adjust to that by using flying monsters that they can fight.

Killing the players is not fun. Almost killing them is.

Amen brother!

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm glad your uber players managed it with only 3 PCs. Course, I seriously have to wonder what other bones you threw at them. Your story sounds extremely suspect since the action economy between foes and PCs nearly doubles in your scenario. An extra second level utility power each really doesn't make up for 2 missing PCs.

Ok i ignore that you accuse me of lying, so i explain how it was possible:

No cheating, but rolled up characters with good stats i admit. But using a chokepoint and not running stupidly into a trap.

I handled a free cure light wounds and regeneration (cleric and fighter utility).

Also the ranger picked the aoe lvl 1 encounter power and was a dwarf with a minor action second wind (a blessing when you can attack with twin strike with two waraxes and +2 damage and have +2 defense when you stand in the middle of some foes)

The cleric is an elven strength cleric with good wisdom and healing strike as encounter power using a fullblade

oh, and the fighter was a warforged battlerager with an executioners axe... yes, this could be called cheating since my minions didn`t do so much damage... forgot to mention it *shame on me*

All had action points remaining.

Did i mention the warforged run into the cave. Got to bloodied by ranged minions and retreated. short rest.

Later Kobolds sent out 3 minions and the slinger and the surviving skirmisher to first look what those adventurers are doing, but just when they tried to sneak up from behind. the warforged decided to run in a second time with back up from the ranger and the cleric catching the kobolds somehow flatfooted. when the warforged battlerager arrived in melee with all those minions, he generated temporary hp nearly as fast as they could bring them down.
The shaman couldn´t really use his blast because of friendly fire, but he and the slinger could get some good shots in. before the second wave arrived, they had killed most minions and the slinger and ran out. The goblins from behind arrived and held them in place for only a short time, because the cleric and the ranger mowed tham down. then the dragonshields and irontooth arrrived with little backup and nearly killed my players (although irontooth was first weakened by the ranger daily) and bloodied him with twinstrike. And Avenging flame from the cleric did most of the rest.

Then the warforged went down, flanked by two dragonshields. The ranger went down and the cleric was nearly out too, so i gave them their utility powers from lvl 2.


But still i say: five players not running inside a cave full of kobolds should not die.
In night below (ADnD 2nd edition) there are more than one cave full of enemies where you could run into and die... and if you play shadow run, a run without preperation will certainly kill you.

The main thing in KotS is: you are not under time pressure before you kill the kobolds. The pressure starts after the kill. So you have enough time sneaking up and scout to know how much Kobolds there are inside the cave and prepare.

Your only defense is: it is an introductory adventure. And up to a certain point you are right.

The mistake of the designers were a) assuming the wizard gets picked and can dea with minions quickly and b) after playing and optimizing too long in their playtest they forgot how hard it is to get used to good tactics.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am curious what the percentage of deaths and TPKs from that fight actually is, though... I mean, I really didn't hear that many complaints about it except in one thread on a message board with I want to say under a hundred responses.

I do remember it was discussed quite a bit a little over a year ago, but I have no statistics. Maybe a poll?

I just did a Google on: TPK H1 Shadowfell, and got 1620 hits. That does seem like quite a few. Granted, some of those discuss not getting TPKed. But, it's still a good sized number. People have talked about it.

It does seem a bit odd that your experienced RPGers rushed into a kobold den, historically known to be filled with traps, without preparation.

How exactly did they know it was a kobold den? Were they supposed to be psychic to know that 17 more foes awaited them within? Is that typical for adventure modules?

They had just had a very lucky large encounter with 13 foes, 12 of which they killed quickly, and were not really wounded with all of their Dailies and most of their Encounters. Why would they think (as new 4E players) that they had to go rest right away? That comes from experience, not necessarily rational forethought.

Armchair analysis often makes assumptions about many things.

It's also a bit unfortunate that the experienced DM chose to incite their behavior by having an enemy flee towards all those extra dangers, despite knowing they should rest before going in.

Experienced with 3.5 and earlier. Not experienced with 4E at the time. Sure, lot's of things look 20/20 in hindsight.