How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[Saeviomagy]

It'd be kinda nice if KarinsDad would stop accusing everyone who won that fight of being a cheater. The argument that the fight is too hard is amply proven by the fact that it violates the encounter design rules.

 

[renau1g]

It's also a bit unfortunate that the experienced DM chose to incite their behavior by having an enemy flee towards all those extra dangers, despite knowing they should rest before going in.

Actually, an experienced DM wisely played an intelligent, cunning, cowardly monster exactly the way he should have. If a group of people rolled up to your house with guns, blasted all your friends in the front yard, would you stand there and wait to be mowed down, or would you run inside where Arnold is waiting with a grenade launcher for them to walk in the front door? (ok poor analogy)

Also, KD wasn't calling anyone a cheater. 3 22 Point buy PC's would likely get slammed quite easily by it. I have 4 PC's of approx 32 PB (we rolled as well) that got nearly TPK'd (I had to pull punches at the end). He was only saying it was an extremely difficult encounter, especially for the first adventure in 4e.

 

[KarinsDad]

It'd be kinda nice if KarinsDad would stop accusing everyone who won that fight of being a cheater.

It'd be kinda nice if people would learn how to read.

I didn't say anyone cheated. I said that I wondered what other bones he threw to his PCs. I don't buy the fact that anyone could play 3 1st level PCs straight up in that encounter without significant help from the DM. As it turned out, my suspicion was vindicated. He upped their level to ~1.5 (the extra 2nd level daily powers and extra hit points from good stats), the PCs had higher than normal point buy, the PCs were designed with stronger weapons and abilities (especially Battlerage) that were not available when the module came out, and he played the enemies real dumb (allowing the PCs to retreat without following them, and then when they came back, he still did two waves that late and allowed the PCs a choke point). Battlerage alone was designed without the designers taking into account minions.

So sure, the enemy was a lot less effective because the DM was pulling for the PCs, even to the point of doing a Deus Ex Machina and giving the PCs powers they did not have once two PCs fell.

"Thou shalt not die" said the DM.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah as a 4e newbie DM, I didn't realize how much ability scores mattered so we rolled up using my tried and true method from 3.x days. Either 4d6, or 3d6 and re-roll 1's.
Now I know better, although from what I've heard of the later WOTC adventures, the desingers haven't really learned how to do a good encounter yet. I'm hopeful for EN Publishing though, I've got the first few 4e WoTBS addies and they look good (with a few minor exceptions)

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah as a 4e newbie DM, I didn't realize how much ability scores mattered so we rolled up using my tried and true method from 3.x days. Either 4d6, or 3d6 and re-roll 1's.

Yup. In 4E, scores are god (that and splat book abilities). And, it is fairly different to DM than earlier versions.

We once had a player roll 2 16s, 2 17s, and 2 18s in a 2E 5D6 drop lowest 2 dice method years ago. He was good in 2E, but he would have kicked major butt in 4E.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah, I had 3 18's in a 2e game (my DM rolled a set and we did in that game, he rolled them for me), so I played a paladin, 18 Cha, 18 Str, 18 Con(or WIS, can't remember)... good times.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Wow, we're back to Irontooth? Our party managed to get through it, though it was a tough fight. But we were a large party (7) that included a wizard and two leaders, and our DM wisely didn't boost the encounter like he normally would have. We were PH-only, by-the-book characters, and still getting used to 4e.

Kalarel, and later Paldomar, though, were absolutely horrid. Irontooth was a brute, you could still /hit/ him, overleveled though he was. Elite overleveled controllers, OTOH... :shudder:


Oh, and as far as the Blue Dragon being able to hover just out of range of everything but a longbow by targeting it's burst at extreme range /just/ over the targets' heads... that's just a tad cheesy. Sure, it works, and PCs do things that cheesy all the time. But I'd bet the guy that gave it a Burst 1 w/in 20 didn't have that in mind.

 

[eamon]

Wow, we're back to Irontooth? Our party managed to get through it, though it was a tough fight. But we were a large party (7) that included a wizard and two leaders, and our DM wisely didn't boost the encounter like he normally would have. We were PH-only, by-the-book characters, and still getting used to 4e.

Kalarel, and later Paldomar, though, were absolutely horrid. Irontooth was a brute, you could still /hit/ him, overleveled though he was. Elite overleveled controllers, OTOH... :shudder:

Also, the Kalarel encounter made fleeing pretty impossible and it included a portal with a save-or-die pull effect which our party didn't realize until we were suddenly lost our full-hitpoint ranger striker one moment. It wasn't exactly the funnest of battles. (The DM probably should have hinted at the save-or-die pull effect, but that kind of extra info wasn't his style - and I don't think he'd really thought about it until it happened).

As for irontooth; that happened to be a cake-walk in our campaign due to sheer luck; the mis-optimized warlord (higher int than str and a +2 high-damage weapon resulting in a very low to-hit) happened to crit him with his daily "Lead the Attack", granting everyone a huge bonus to-hit. Irontooth went down within one round and never managed to use any of his more dangerous attacks. That was probably the only time that character ever hit with any daily; he got replaced fairly quickly, though.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It'd be kinda nice if people would learn how to read.

I didn't say anyone cheated. I said that I wondered what other bones he threw to his PCs. I don't buy the fact that anyone could play 3 1st level PCs straight up in that encounter without significant help from the DM. As it turned out, my suspicion was vindicated. He upped their level to ~1.5 (the extra 2nd level daily powers and extra hit points from good stats), the PCs had higher than normal point buy, the PCs were designed with stronger weapons and abilities (especially Battlerage) that were not available when the module came out, and he played the enemies real dumb (allowing the PCs to retreat without following them, and then when they came back, he still did two waves that late and allowed the PCs a choke point). Battlerage alone was designed without the designers taking into account minions.

So sure, the enemy was a lot less effective because the DM was pulling for the PCs, even to the point of doing a Deus Ex Machina and giving the PCs powers they did not have once two PCs fell.

"Thou shalt not die" said the DM.

no, not really dumb, but too cautious. They also didn´t really know what awaits them and decided it is better to set a trap. Battlerager vigor however spoiled their plan. (Better weapons against minions doesn´t do that much)

And the PCs had enough experience for lvl 2 before the encounter but didn´t do an extended rest. So I didn´t want a TPK there. Especially not a TPK that close.

Maybe the designers were a bit annoyed that common believe was PCs are too tough at lvl 1, so maybe they designed this encounter consciously as a near TPK. (The encounter level should be a hint)

to scores: i don´t think scores are worth so much more in 4e. It is just that you had a big gap where stats don´t count anything in 2nd edition.

In 2nd edition you could always make use of 16 con, dex 18 and your main score for every class.

its a big difference in HP, AC and damage. (compare str 15 fighter with 14 con to a fighter with 18 str and 18 con)

but the difference between 9 con and 14 con is very low.

to come back to the topic:

the dragon in ADnd had very low (good) AC and high magic resistance and good ranged attacks. Staying at range against a typical party whithout potions of flying meant TPK. And then the dragon could retreat until potions and spells wore off and attack again later.

The difference however doesn´t really ly in the rules, but in the mindset of the players. When you had to face overwhelming odds you began thinking out of the rules what you can do to stack the odds in your favour.

1. Try to get onto the dragon and attack
2. Use illusion spells to shape the surrounding
3. Use terrain to your favour

You have at least option 1 and 3 in 4e to get an advantage.

 

[keterys]

Irontooth only lived for two rounds in the game I ran... and given he came out while they were fighting, that really says something. I don't remember if they critted or not, but they definitely dailied him up a bit.