D&D 5E How broken is Long Death Monk at 11th level or higher?

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I really can't think of any way to seriously exploit this ability. It's a nice failsafe, and having it available can justify playing a bit more aggressively with risky tactics. But if you're thinking to stay in combat at 1HP regularly, then you'll be burning through your Ki fast in lvl 11+ combats. So many enemies have multiple attacks, and facing hordes of low CR enemies will be a massive threat.

 

[jgsugden]

It is pretty difficult to spend 11 ki in 3 rounds of combat. Not impossible but pretty difficult.

I have found once you get to 8th level Monks rarely out of ki. 8 ki is more than one per round, every round, and that is assuming you are doing 6 combats a day with 2 short rests, fewer combats or more short rests and you have a crapton of ki.

It is pretty common for me to see a 5th level plus monk spend 5 Ki on the first round of combat. They charge in, they Stunning (1) attack one target, they Flurry of Blows (1), they Stunning attack on both Flurry attacks (2) and then do the remainder of their Multiattack (1). These stuns may all be aimed at one target until they are stunned, or they may move to a secondary target once the initial target is stunned.

This is a really common approach I've seen often. If there is one main foe and the stun works on them early, they may hold those extra Ki for anothr combat, but I almost always ran out of Ki and wished I had more.

 

[Deset Gled]

I really can't think of any way to seriously exploit this ability.

I don't think "exploit", or the OP's term "broken", is a good way to describe Mastery of Death. But it does have potential for unforeseen, and possibly undesired, consequences.

The first potential for wonkiness is along the lines of things other people have brought up. When the monk knows he can't die, it enables outlandish behavior like swimming in lava or dancing in a blade barrier. Many people won't see this as being any more of a problem than abstract hit points and other game mechanics. But I think Master of Death takes a few more chips away at verisimilitude (for those that care about it).

Beyond that, Mastery of Death has some interesting effects on resource management. If managing hit points and healing is a factor in your game, this changes the game a lot. If you know an enemy has the ability to hit hard, it suddenly becomes better to tank with a 1 HP monk than a 100 HP warrior. After all, Ki can be completely replenished after a short rest, but HP takes a long rest, and HD takes two days. Again, lots of people probably won't care. But for those that do it can result in significant changes to tactics.

One of the complaints some people have about 5e in general is that it's too easy to not die (especially compared to early editions). This ability just exacerbates that problem. And, IMNSHO, the ability to not care about death just screws with the story sometimes. Does the bad guy have me pinned to a wall with a gun against my head, demanding I tell him my secrets or die? Who cares? By 13th level he'll have to reload his six-shooter twice before I have to make a death save. Have you ever had to choose which friend to save with only seconds to keep them alive? Well, your Death monk friend is guaranteed to last an extra minute even if he's unconscious.

Most people probably won't deal with these edge cases often. Or ever. And even when they do come up, it's not going to break the game. But Mastery of Death does have potential to change the game, much more than many similar feats or abilities do. And that's something worth paying attention to.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Flurry + 4 stunning strikes = 5 ki per round. And that is before the monk starts doing anything interesting.

This isn’t good use of ki, good strategy, or a good general approach to the class.

This may be why you think the class is “so bad it needs all the help it can get”.

This is like complaining that paladins are only useful for deal overkill amounts of damage per round, who also never casts spells.

Yep, Zealot Barb gets this in a much better form.

Agreed. And a better chassis for making use of it.

Beyond what others have mentioned, all this does is prevent defeat by dropping to 0 hp. Anyone who has seen someone's "I have a 30+ AC" build in play knows that is less impressive than it seems. There's always another defense you don't have shored up. Even if you do have a solid defense*, what that can mean is that the enemies ignore you (and the likely minor damage output you have) while they demolish all your friends (and then gang up on you at the end). A monk who dedicates their ki to defense may well end up realizing that they'd rather spend it on flurries or stun-locking their opponents. FWIW, it also runs into a bit of redundancy -- monks already had a way to enhance their defense by spending ki (spending a ki point to dodge as a bonus action), this just doesn't take a bonus action and works better for some AC/HP distributions.
*Monks eventually get proficiency in all saves (although because they are attribute/ASI-starved, still likely will only have a middling Str, Int, and Cha save) and get a defense against the main non-AC/save-based HP loss (falling), leaving hp lost based on their relatively modest AC a main limit (one this monk variety has a solid response).

Yep. Every “unkillable” build I’ve seen other than some permastealth builds and actual tanks (heavies) just aren’t dishing out enough offense for the enemies to care.

If, for example, a gigantic stone gate is closing and the PC steps into it to hold it open with his body - he keeps dropping to 1 hp every time he takes damage, but what does that mean?

I love the story of a mystic warrior centering thier body and breath and becoming a human pillar that cannot be crushed, calmly telling thier friends “I can only hold this for a very short time, my friends. You need to run.” Knowing that the most likely outcome is that he will run out of time, lose his “focus”, and not be able to get out from under it in time, sacrificing himself to help his friends escape.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It is pretty common for me to see a 5th level plus monk spend 5 Ki on the first round of combat. They charge in, they Stunning (1) attack one target, they Flurry of Blows (1), they Stunning attack on both Flurry attacks (2) and then do the remainder of their Multiattack (1).

What is that last one? Using extra attack doesn’t cost ki. Did you mean that they use another SS on their extra attack?

And it may be common to use stunning on all 4 attacks with FoB, but it’s rarely actually a good use of resources. Don’t waste ki stunning low damage (or low offense) or low HP targets, unless they have very high AC and are otherwise high value targets.

 

[ECMO3]

I really can't think of any way to seriously exploit this ability. It's a nice failsafe, and having it available can justify playing a bit more aggressively with risky tactics. But if you're thinking to stay in combat at 1HP regularly, then you'll be burning through your Ki fast in lvl 11+ combats. So many enemies have multiple attacks, and facing hordes of low CR enemies will be a massive threat.

11 hits at 11th level is probably around 150-200hps worth of damage, which would be after he lost the 70hps or so that he starts with. If a Monk runs through that much ki, that quickly, any other character would be long gone at that level, which is the point.

So you are generally talking about is a character absorbing over 250hps worth of damage alone ...... three times a day if he has 2 short rests.

For example - One Adult Green Dragon is a "hard" encounter for 5 11th level characters. A green dragon has 6 attacks a round (including legendary actions) and does an average of 16 damage per attack. So if he if he goes into that fight and uses all his ki against 11 hits from such a creature, that ki would have absorbed on average 176 damage and that is if the Dragon never breathes. If the dragon opens with a breath weapon it is about 216 damage he is soaking up and those numbers don't include any hps he starts with.

To put this another way - if he starts that combat with 1 hp, with no magic buffs and an 18AC, on average he will go down in the 4th round of combat and do on average 63 points of damage to the dragon BY HIMSELF before he goes down (using only attacks and martial arts). That is doing weak Monk damage, if the other 4 members of the party can manage to match the Monk's weak DPR, the Dragon will die in the 3rd round, and the Monk will still have on average 4 ki left with another 11 coming at the next short rest. If other party members can each equal the paltry 16DPR vs AC19 that he puts out, the Dragon will die in the third round .... That is assuming he breathes and then concentrates every single one of his attacks on that Monk.


Now if your hard combat is with 30 skeleton archers, where each hit does 6 points of damage, they all target you and you start the fight at 0 hps, then you have a point because it is the number of hits it nullifies.

 

[ECMO3]

Flurry + 4 stunning strikes = 5 ki per round. And that is before the monk starts doing anything interesting.

As I said it is difficult to do that in combat, not impossible and what you describe is VERY difficult to do for 3 straight rounds.

First all 4 of those attacks have to hit or else you can't use the ki for Stunning Strike.

Second you need to be able to attack 4 enemies that are not already stunned - so hit one and if he fails his save you need to be able to get to another one (and hit him too) ...

Third up to three of those enemies need to be within 5 feet of each other because of the wording on FOB (i.e. "immediately after"). So you make an attack and stun a guy; if you want to use FOB and stun two more enemies, both of those enemies need to be within reach when you hit the first guy or you can't FOB on 2 more.

Finally you need to get 4 hits, in such specific conditions, for 3 straight rounds. While flights do commonly go longer than 3 rounds, they are often in mop up by the third round, and if your Monk was able to lay down 8 stunning strikes in the first two rounds, chances are it is over by round 3.

Bottom line, it will be extremely rare that you can do this, in this fashion. You either need to hit 4 different enemies with 3 in close proximity or you need to hit enemies and have them repeatedly make their saves, with each made save reducing the number of different enemies you need to attack by 1 and you need to do this three straight rounds. That is not easy to do.

Even without FOB, 3 attacks, each with stunning strike is not easy to do for 3 straight rounds, at least not in a manner that is tactically sound. You can do it easier if you are fighting an enemy with low AC an extremely high con save and legendaries, but in that case you are wasting ki on an enemy that isn't failing his save.

For the purpose of this discussion, I am obviously assuming that you are not wasting ki stunning an enemy that you already stunned this turn.

 

[ECMO3]

It is pretty common for me to see a 5th level plus monk spend 5 Ki on the first round of combat. They charge in, they Stunning (1) attack one target, they Flurry of Blows (1), they Stunning attack on both Flurry attacks (2) and then do the remainder of their Multiattack (1). These stuns may all be aimed at one target until they are stunned,

Two things:

1. 5 in the first round is A LOT different than 11 in 3 rounds, and a lot easier to do.

2. I would argue that it is relatively uncommon to be able to successfully pull off what you claim here. Three of the enemies would need to be within 5 feet of each other (which is common enough on the first round but not always the case) or the one target you are going after would need to make his save 3 times (which is not common at all) and in either case you need to hit on all 4 attacks (which is uncommon).

I don't think using 5 ki in one round is unheard of, but neither do I agree that it happens often. Using 11 in 3 straight rounds is very rare.

or they may move to a secondary target once the initial target is stunned.

They can not "move" to a secondary target and use FOB, FOB must happen "immediately after" an attack. You can move and make a martial arts attack and stun another target but not FOB.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Spend the monk's ki to be one hit from going down or spend the cleric's action to do the same but with a slightly bigger number.

The only problem I see is wasting one of the DM's infinite dragons' turns trying to rekill them.

 

[jgsugden]

What is that last one? Using extra attack doesn’t cost ki. Did you mean that they use another SS on their extra attack?

Yes... another stun attempt.

....2. I would argue that it is relatively uncommon to be able to successfully pull off what you claim here. Three of the enemies would need to be within 5 feet of each other (which is common enough on the first round but not always the case) or the one target you are going after would need to make his save 3 times (which is not common at all) and in either case you need to hit on all 4 attacks (which is uncommon)....They can not "move" to a secondary target and use FOB, FOB must happen "immediately after" an attack. You can move and make a martial arts attack and stun anouther target.

This is why we often see a 5th level plus monk move into position, do the first attack of their multiattack, then the FOB attacks, and then after that do the last attack - because they can move before that last attack.

Regardless, you also have to remember that stun attempts fail a lot. Con saves tend to be strong on monsters, and your DC tends to be a bit behind spellcasters as wisdom is not your primary stat.

It is rare that I don't have good uses for stun on all 4 attacks on the first round of a challenging combat. Heck, I have seen a gnarly gloomstalker 4/battlemaster 4/open hand 12 build in a one shot that was designed to eradicate legendary resistance. It moved in and attempted what would have been 8 stunning attacks to the big bad in the first round just to draw off the legendary resistances. It could force up to 15 saving throws in that first round...

As for the argument it is not a good use of resources to stun early and often: This is absolutely incorrect. Stunning early is the absolute best time to stun as it can allow you to prevent the foe from setting up a defense or from ever inflicting offense. When fighting a legendary monster, it can allow you to deplete those leganadry resistances and give you access to taking it down with a saving throw spell or ability. Outside of bad luck on the saving throw dice, I can't recall a single time I regretted stunning early and often.

 

[Immoralkickass]

Thats definitely not broken, but also rather weak for a lv11 ability. To put into perspective how weak it is, imagine a spell that can do the same but costs a level 3 spell slot.

That same spell slot can be used to Fireball your enemies so that you don't have to take that much damage to begin with.

For Monks, you know what else cost 1 Ki? Patient Defense. That would save you a lot of HP. If you're saving your Ki just to stay on your feet, then you are not contributing much in a fight. The whole point of staying alive is to contribute, not just brag about the fact that you are barely hanging on.

Also, Barbarians can do the same at level 11 for free. Relentless Rage allows you to drop to 1 hp just by passing a save. Sure, the save DC gets higher on each use, but its free.

But the phrase 'i have never played...' should be a dead give away on how you only 'think' it is broken when it is not.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes... another stun attempt.

This is why we often see a 5th level plus monk move into position, do the first attack of their multiattack, then the FOB attacks, and then after that do the last attack - because they can move before that last attack.

Regardless, you also have to remember that stun attempts fail a lot. Con saves tend to be strong on monsters, and your DC tends to be a bit behind spellcasters as wisdom is not your primary stat.

It is rare that I don't have good uses for stun on all 4 attacks on the first round of a challenging combat. Heck, I have seen a gnarly gloomstalker 4/battlemaster 4/open hand 12 build in a one shot that was designed to eradicate legendary resistance. It moved in and attempted what would have been 8 stunning attacks to the big bad in the first round just to draw off the legendary resistances. It could force up to 15 saving throws in that first round...

As for the argument it is not a good use of resources to stun early and often: This is absolutely incorrect. Stunning early is the absolute best time to stun as it can allow you to prevent the foe from setting up a defense or from ever inflicting offense. When fighting a legendary monster, it can allow you to deplete those leganadry resistances and give you access to taking it down with a saving throw spell or ability. Outside of bad luck on the saving throw dice, I can't recall a single time I regretted stunning early and often.

Has anyone said that it’s a poor use to stun early?

Almost all powerful abilities are better used early than late in D&D.

Often, however, not so much. 4 stun attempts a round is only ever a good use of ki when fighting a legendary creature, and even then it’s likely unnecessary. Just do the at-will martial arts attack, and 2-3 stuns. Most subclasses have interesting uses for ki, and there is probably more adventuring day left after the fight.

 

[ECMO3]

Spend the monk's ki to be one hit from going down or spend the cleric's action to do the same but with a slightly bigger number.

For far fewer times a day, usings actions or bonus actions and if you are going to allow yourself to be downed then death is a big concern. If they made this an action of some sort or a bonus action or reaction it would be very weak I think.

If two enemies with multiattack are in melee with you and the first hit from the first enemy downs you there is an extremely high chance you will die as 3 more hits kill you outright and those atacks are made with advantage.

The only problem I see is wasting one of the DM's infinite dragons' turns trying to rekill them.

From an action economy point of view this is absolutely true, take actions off the battelfield and concentrating on someone it will take 4 rounds to down and 5 rounds to kill if you go nova on him does not do this.

However that doesn't change the effect or the overall battle - if the intent is to actually win the fight the Dragon is going to have to fight the Monk at some point and when that happens the Dragon can expect to lose 70 more hps before the Monk is down. So if the party, including the Monk, manages 140 or so damage before all of the rest of them die the Monk will usually win this fight by himself even at 1 hp.

 

[Vaalingrade]

For far fewer times a day, usings actions or bonus actions and if you are going to allow yourself to be downed then death is a big concern. If they made this an action of some sort or a bonus action or reaction it would be very weak I think.

If two enemies with multiattack are in melee with you and the first hit from the first enemy downs you there is an extremely high chance you will die as 3 more hits kill you outright and those atacks are made with advantage.


From an action economy point of view this is absolutely true, take actions off the battelfield and concentrating on someone it will take 4 rounds to down and 5 rounds to kill if you go nova on him does not do this.

However that doesn't change the effect or the overall battle - if the intent is to actually win the fight the Dragon is going to have to fight the Monk at some point and when that happens the Dragon can expect to lose 70 more hps before the Monk is down. So if the party, including the Monk, manages 140 or so damage before all of the rest of them die the Monk will usually win this fight by himself even at 1 hp.

This is all only a problem if you really, really, REALLY want to kill the PC.

I don't, so it's all Hakuna.

And as you just pointed out, the DM can just unfair them to death by sending multi-attackers to blow through their ki anyway.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes... another stun attempt.

This is why we often see a 5th level plus monk move into position, do the first attack of their multiattack, then the FOB attacks, and then after that do the last attack - because they can move before that last attack.

Sure, but if you are using FOB on 3 targets there have to be 3 targets in reach (or you need to use a ranged Monk weapon against the first at disadvantage and then FOB the 2 others in reach). This is situational. That does not mean it does not happen but it does not happen often enough that you can say you can do it at will.

Then when that is the case you need to hit all 4 of them.

FOB actually can reduce the number of enemies you can attack. If you don't use FOB you can attack, extra attack, maertial arts attack as long as you have enough movement to move within range of all of them. With FOB you can't move between one of your attack and the bonus action that gives you two more.

Regardless, you also have to remember that stun attempts fail a lot. Con saves tend to be strong on monsters, and your DC tends to be a bit behind spellcasters as wisdom is not your primary stat.

But they have to fail every time if you want to use another ki on the same enemy and you need to hit them.

Lets say for example you need a 6 to hit this enemy, and lets say they need a 6 to make their save. Even in that extreme case the chance you hit them 4 times in a row and they make their save the first 3 times is 13%. That is an enemy extremely easy to hit and with an extremely good con save. That is what would need to happen to spam 5 ki in the manner stated above. Make their save more difficult or their AC higher and the chance of doing that is much lower.

Using the Green Dragon example above against an 11th level Monk with a 20Dex and 20Wis (10 to hit, 7 needed to save) - the chance of hitting him 4 times is 9% assuming he starts with all 3 of his legendaries and can automatically succeed on the first three saves. The chance of doing it if he starts with no legendaries and makes the first three saves is 3%. The chance of doing that 3 rounds in a row is about 3 in 100,000.

It is rare that I don't have good uses for stun on all 4 attacks on the first round of a challenging combat.

The math shows that is not true. You need to hit to use stuning strike.

CR11 average AC is 17. With a +9 to hit at 11th level your chance of landing 4 successful strikes in 1 round is 18%. That is just the chance of hitting 4 times and does not account for the other stars you need to align in terms of position to make this work.

Mathematically, less than one in 5 combats you should be able to land 4 hits on round 1. If your caster put the enemie(s) in Faerie Fire and you are rolling with advantage you still would only hit 4 times in 60% of rounds, so nearly half the time you would not be able to do that EVEN WITH ADVANTAGE and 40% is not rare.

Heck, I have seen a gnarly gloomstalker 4/battlemaster 4/open hand 12 build in a one shot that was designed to eradicate legendary resistance. It moved in and attempted what would have been 8 stunning attacks to the big bad in the first round just to draw off the legendary resistances. It could force up to 15 saving throws in that first round...

Assuming you were in darkness agaisnt an enemy without blindsight and a +15 to hit (includes precision) against 20AC (average for CR20)

Your chance of successfully hitting 8 times with advantage, using precision is 72%. Using precision means you do not have battlemaster dice for whatever saving throws you are trying to draw legendaries. Without precision that number is only about 25%.

As for the argument it is not a good use of resources to stun early and often: This is absolutely incorrect.

I never said it was not a good use. What I said you can't very often use 5 ki for FOB and stunning strike and you can almost never use it for 3 turns in a row.

I stand by that because the math shows that is true. You have to hit to use stunning strike and you need the opportunity to even use FOB and attempt to hit.

Stunning early is the absolute best time to stun as it can allow you to prevent the foe from setting up a defense or from ever inflicting offense.

I agree with that.

When fighting a legendary monster, it can allow you to deplete those leganadry resistances and give you access to taking it down with a saving throw spell or ability.

It can, if they have a low AC and low con save or if you have a long time and get lucky dice. But it is not very common.

The Green Dragon above shows some actual numbers for this for an example enemy - On average an 11th level Monk 20 Dex, 20 Wisdom, spamming FOB and stunning strike against an adult Green Dragon: to drain all three legendaries on average will require 5 rounds, 18 attacks, hitting 10 times with stunning strike, resulting in 3 failed saves and using 14 ki (4 on FOB. 10 on stunning strike). With only 11 ki available the Monk will usually not be successful at using all the legendaries if he spams FOB and SS. The chance of successfully draining all 3 legendaries before he runs out of ki is only 27%. On average the Monk will run out of ki in round 4. Your chance of draining all the legendaries in the first round is 1.6%.

Note in this example you are using 3 ki a turn on average (1 for FOB and two for stunning strike the two times you hit the Dragon); 2 points below the 5ki that you claim to routinely use on FOB and SS in round 1.

He actually has a better chance of draining all legendaries if he does not use FOB. If he makes 3 attacks a turn instead of 4 he will on average drain the Dragon's last legendary at the end of the 6th round after using his 10th ki and on average having 1 ki left. His chance of succeeding in this case is 53% (assuming he and the dragon are still fighting after 6 rounds).

Note, those numbers do not include actually stunning the dragon. Stunning the dragon will on average require 3 more hits (using stunning strike on each) and 5 more attacks.

Outside of bad luck on the saving throw dice, I can't recall a single time I regretted stunning early and often.

I agree, but unless you have win the the lottery type luck I gaurantee you do not routinely use 5 ki on FOB and stunning strike in a round unless you are fighting extremely weak enemies.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When the monk knows he can't die, it enables outlandish behavior like swimming in lava or dancing in a blade barrier.

It doesn't actually enable these, since it leaves the monk on 1 hp, so any continuous damage effect will quickly burn through all the monk's ki.

It enables running over lava, or through a blade barrier, but this is fine - underpowered even, compared to the casters who can create the blade barrier, or fly over the lava at half the level.

Also, a point of physics - molten rock still has the density of rock. You can't swim in it, even if the heat cannot harm you, since you can't sink. Archimedes' principle applies.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I agree, but unless you have win the the lottery type luck I gaurantee you do not routinely use 5 ki on FOB and stunning strike in a round unless you are fighting extremely weak enemies.

But the thing is, against extremely weak enemies, the monk is pointless anyway. A peasant with a pointy stick will do as much damage.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This isn’t good use of ki, good strategy, or a good general approach to the class.

It is, of course a simplistic example, and the monk has other options depending on the tactical situation and subclass. But whatever they do, if they aren't burning through their ki quickly they are not being effective.

And a monk should aim to burn through their ki quickly. As a short rest class we can assume they will take a short rest after any fight of significance, so any ki they have left over is a waste. Hording ki is not a good strategy.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It is, of course a simplistic example, and the monk has other options depending on the tactical situation and subclass. But whatever they do, if they aren't burning through their ki quickly they are not being effective.

And a monk should aim to burn through their ki quickly. As a short rest class we can assume they will take a short rest after any fight of significance, so any ki they have left over is a waste. Hording ki is not a good strategy.

You present a false dichotomy. One needn’t “horde ki” in order to not burn through it in a couple of rounds of combat.

Hopefully, one’s game is challenging both in and out of combat. Using more than a few ki per round is generally overkill.

Monks baseline at hyper mobile skirmisher with the same baseline damage as other weapon users. (1-2 action weapon attacks plus a modest damage bonus in the bonus action martials arts attack)

Stunning Strike is best saved for glass canons and legendaries that aren’t super high-con, and not blown through like free candy in the first round of every fight.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Monks baseline at hyper mobile skirmisher with the same baseline damage as other weapon users. (1-2 action weapon attacks plus a modest damage bonus in the bonus action martials arts attack)

Monks lower AC, hp and inability to effectively use 2d6 weapons puts them behind baseline melee classes.

You present a false dichotomy. One needn’t “horde ki” in order to not burn through it in a couple of rounds of combat.

If the monk doesn't need to use ki, then the fight isn't challenging. Combat that does not threaten the party is basically meaningless. If they do use their ki, then there is no point in having any left at the end of the fight, since they will be taking a short rest anyway. As a general strategy, it's best to use any consumable resource you don't intend to have left over at the end as early in the fight as possible.

Stunning Strike is best saved for glass canons and legendaries that aren’t super high-con, and not blown through like free candy in the first round of every fight.

Indeed. And if there are no legendary foes in the fight, the monk may as well sleep through it, practically any other class will contribute more.