D&D 5E How cognizant are you of the rules of the game?

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How much do you like to "optimize" when developing your character?

  • Completely. It's a game, and I want the best character within the rules.

    Votes: 22 10.9%
  • Mostly. I worry about the best abilities and everything, but I don't lose sleep over it.

    Votes: 102 50.7%
  • A little. It's not like I'm making a low STR/DEX, high INT fighter.

    Votes: 65 32.3%
  • D&D has rules?

    Votes: 12 6.0%

This is inarguably true, and it is reflected in all fantasy fiction. Like how those worthless hobbits were left behind in Bree to be mugged before they cried their way back to the Shire. And then that Gimli, offering his axe! Sheesh, what was that, a battleaxe? Get a shield, or use a greataxe, you moron! And those human "fighters", Boromir and Aragorn? What kind of so-called armor were those suicidal maniacs wearing (or not wearing)?

That's why the Council gave the One Ring to Legolas and Gandalf, the only decently optimized characters of the whole bunch. The rest of them were idiots.

Bilbo was wearing chain mail...

Anyways, you can't just throw classes at an old story and assume that it counters his point. His point is correct that a seasoned warrior would make optimal choices if the choices were available to him and he had knowledge of how they worked. However this only works to a certain extent, for instance a sword and shield defending expert may never have the idea to take a pact from a demon to get extra hp when he drops someone. It's not in his knowledge set. However you better believe if he finds a set of plate on the ground he is going to use it.
It goes both ways, the rp backs up the mechanics, and the mechanics back up the rp. Both are necessary and good parts of the game.
 

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Actually, he is probably not going to use it, as plate mail is highly customized and would completely change his fighting style. Look at The Hound or Oberyn Martell. Or even Syrio. None would be as effective weighted down with some random kill's platemail, especially if it's a piece of crap loke most monster armor is supposed to be.
 

I voted "a little," and here's why.

When I make a character, concept is queen: fulfilling my vision for the character is the thing that matters most to me. When it comes to a choice of perfect optimization and enabling a concept, the concept wins out.

However, once the concept is enabled there's no real reason to be less effective than you need to be. That's where I optimize as long as I don't break the concept I strove for. I refer to this as "optimizing within a concept."

Because this is my attitude toward concepts and optimization, one of the things that really irritates me is what I refer to as a "concept tax." What is a concept tax? A concept tax is when the system requires you to permanently spend a limited resource just to do something that is different than normal but no more powerful than normal.

For example: One of my many characters was a cleric who forswore the use of armor and weapons in favor of being protected by divine grace and smiting enemies with holy might. This character simply replaced armor bonuses to AC with an equal divine bonus to AC, and treated her touch as a mace attack (using CHA as the attack and damage modifier instead of STR). The touch was treated as a normal attack and not a touch attack because it was highly telegraphed. If I were required to spend one or more feats to make that character, with just the traits that I described (traits that are no more powerful than a normal cleric), that is a concept tax.
 

I voted "a little," and here's why.

When I make a character, concept is queen: fulfilling my vision for the character is the thing that matters most to me. When it comes to a choice of perfect optimization and enabling a concept, the concept wins out.

However, once the concept is enabled there's no real reason to be less effective than you need to be. That's where I optimize as long as I don't break the concept I strove for. I refer to this as "optimizing within a concept."

I agree. A lot of people also don't understand that optimizing for the concept is a form of optimization. By realizing your concept, your character is optimized, even if you aren't maximizing damage. Optimization =/= combat ability.

Because this is my attitude toward concepts and optimization, one of the things that really irritates me is what I refer to as a "concept tax." What is a concept tax? A concept tax is when the system requires you to permanently spend a limited resource just to do something that is different than normal but no more powerful than normal.

For example: One of my many characters was a cleric who forswore the use of armor and weapons in favor of being protected by divine grace and smiting enemies with holy might. This character simply replaced armor bonuses to AC with an equal divine bonus to AC, and treated her touch as a mace attack (using CHA as the attack and damage modifier instead of STR). The touch was treated as a normal attack and not a touch attack because it was highly telegraphed. If I were required to spend one or more feats to make that character, with just the traits that I described (traits that are no more powerful than a normal cleric), that is a concept tax.

This is where I am going to disagree with you. I think a feat to do what you just described is just what is needed. My cleric with his armor and weapons can have them taken away and I will be unarmed and unarmored. Your divine concept doesn't have that built in weakness. Your arms and armor are always with you and not nearly as obvious, which has yet more advantages. Your concept is more powerful than normal by virtue of lack of the same weaknesses and in versatility.
 

The characters are aware of the in-game reality which the rules reflect, and given that I won't make a character who is suicidally incompetent, there is no conflict between Optimization and Role-Playing. A character who chooses a sub-optimal weapon, merely because it is "cool", is a fool and a liability that shall not be suffered by the other individuals in the group.

Seriously, building an incompetent character is a jerk move to everyone else at the table. Don't do that. If you fail to kill the dragon because your sword only does a d6 instead of a d8, and then the dragon breathes fire and kills the whole party, then that TPK is entirely your fault and you should feel bad. There are millions of ways to build and play a character that isn't incompetent; it is not a meaningful limit on your freedom of expression.

I will say that I don't particularly agree with your tone.

However, allow me to express my take on what you said in the hopes that it may be expressed in a way that's more palatable.


I think we can all agree that being an adventurer is difficult. It's a rough life filled with danger at every turn. A lot of adventurers face the threat of violence from various monsters and ill-mannered humanoids, and there will be times when you can't just flee or talk your way out of a situation. That's when combat comes in.

Adventurers generally recognize that their job is difficult, violent, and requires a measure of combat skills to survive it for more than a few weeks. Adventurers also typically recognize that different weapons have different degrees of effectiveness. Any adventurer who knows about weapons is going to recognize that when it comes to cutting down an enemy quickly a longsword is better than a dagger.

It's also important to recognize that adventurers live in a different world than we do. In their world, reach isn't as much a thing as it is for us. In our world, the reach difference between a rapier and a dagger is big deal: in their world, it's not. Unless you're using the optional weapon speed rules, a weapon's size/weight has no impact on who will get that first swing: for us, that matters. Optional rules aside, the main factor for determining how effective a weapon is in the world that D&D adventurers reside in is the damage die (in the case of ranged weapons the different ranges are pertinent as well).

The damage die is really an abstraction, and it's frankly a rather poor one. Every weapon on the weapons table is a lethal weapon capable of killing with a single blow under the right conditions. A more accurate representation would be if they all had exploding damage dice (i.e. a max result means rolling again and adding the results together) or if damage was based on class to represent varying degrees of proficiency in arms. However, unless one is using an optional rule the die type is the most important stat in terms of how effective it is a weapon in the hands of anyone who picks it up.

Now, PCs who are just starting their career as adventurers may well not know which weapons are the best, but people who have been around for a while are likely to know this: they won't know what the damage dice are, but they should be able to get an approximation of that knowledge by realizing "that fight took longer than I thought" (less damage = more required attacks = more rounds = more time) or "he took a lot more cuts before going down" (less damage = more required attacks). If a PC is mentored in the combat arts by someone, that is probably going to be one of the lessons that is passed down.

This dominance of the damage die type is especially present at low levels and when stats that add to weapon damage are not optimized. If you have +1 damage from your strength, then a +1 average damage from an increase in die type is much larger by comparison than it would be if your stat gave you a +3 or +4. If you're talking about the difference between a d6 weapon (3.5) and a d8 weapon (4.5) then you're talking about an improvement in effectiveness of more than 25% (a 25% improvement is nothing to sneeze at). At early levels where your hit points are at a premium and where you are likely facing lower HP enemies, felling foes faster can be the difference between living and dying, and an extra point can be the difference between taking two rounds to kill an enemy or three rounds.

At later levels the one point average, two-point maximum, will fade into the background of magic weapon bonuses, improved stat bonuses, etc., so the difference eventually becomes negligible. However, it is fair to say, especially at early levels, that in the world whose physical laws are represented by the rules of the game some weapons are just flat-out better than others. It is equally fair to say that in that world people who know about weapons are likely to eschew the inferior weapons unless they know of a special circumstance that would favor those weapons (like having to conceal a weapon favors a dagger over a short or long sword).
 

Would players really complain about another player using a mace instead of a warhammer? I really don't see that as a big deal and can't imagine anyone at my table who would do so. We're there to have fun and if a fighter wants to run with a mace then they can run with a mace, it is unlikely to hold the party back.

I've never personally seen it happen, or even heard f it happening, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does happen. Experience has taught me to be a "hope for best but expect the worst" kind of girl when it comes to dealing with people.
 

Hey, you're right. In the real world long swords do more damage than short swords, so therefore short swords don't exist because only a fool would use one. Right? Or maybe there's more to deciding what to use than mere numbers dealing with damage.

To be perfectly fair, the real world accounts for many more factors than D&D does. When it comes to melee weapons in D&D, all other things being equal, the one with the higher damage die is clearly the most effective choice.
 

I think the issue is that you're cloaking metagame with in-world. A PC who does less than
optimal damage (smaller die rolled), increasing chance of TPK, to the chagrin of other
players, is a metagame issue, not an in-world issue. In-world shortswords may be objectively superior to longswords in close-quarters fighting for reasons that are not modelled by the ruleset; eg
the rules assign every combatant a simplistic 5' frontage whereas in-world spears & shortswords need much less frontage than battleaxes and greatswords.

I don't quite agree with the notion that going with a d6 weapon over a d8 weapon is incompetence or holding the party back. That said, I don't see a cloaking going on here. It doesn't seem any more unreasonable to me that a person skilled with weapons would realize that a d8 weapon is more effective than a d6 weapon (all other things being equal) than it does that a person would realize that climbing with a rope is easier than climbing without one.
 

This is where I am going to disagree with you. I think a feat to do what you just described is just what is needed. My cleric with his armor and weapons can have them taken away and I will be unarmed and unarmored. Your divine concept doesn't have that built in weakness. Your arms and armor are always with you and not nearly as obvious, which has yet more advantages. Your concept is more powerful than normal by virtue of lack of the same weaknesses and in versatility.

You're not the first to disagree with me about that, and I doubt you'll be the last. However, I would argue that the difference that you describe is a relative corner case. The cleric I described can still effectively lose the use of her weapon if tied up, and the cleric you described losing her weapon for more than a single round also seems pretty rare given the way that I understand disarms work by default in 5e.
 


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