D&D 5E How cognizant are you of the rules of the game?

[pming]

Hiya!

If I had to guess? About 0.1% chance that I'll be in an accident of some sort, and then probably a one-in-three chance that the accident would be fatal.

Thats kind of the point. You have to guess. The guy with the Mace vs. the guy with the Warhammer, or the guy with the Longsword vs. the guy with the Shortsword? They are guessing that their weapon is best. They don't have "the numbers". They barely have anything even resembling scientific experimentation. They have Old Pennet, the warrior who told them Well, I've mostly seen folks using the Short Sword, and being it's kinda my countrymens favored sword, I learned it as well. I've seen some easteners using those long-swords though. All fine and good, but they seem unwieldy to me, swinging to and fro, hopping to connect, making big arching sweeps. Any defender worth his ale could see it coming! Now, a good, well placed thrust from a short sword? That, my boy, that's hard to see coming!.

The specific numbers aren't important. There are a lot of variables involved. The important thing is that we make the right choices based on the information available to us. I'm not going to do anything to increase my risk of death, unless the reward for doing so is sufficient to justify it.

I thought you were all up about "the numbers"? A guy with a d6 weapon versus a d8 weapon was "foolish" and a player choosing the lower over the higher was being a "jerk". Now it's not about the numbers? What gives?

Besides, if you don't have "the numbers" how do you know what will or will not increase your risk of death? Obvious things are obvious; wait until there is a red light and cross at the crosswalk. But non-obvious things...aren't. Do you cross at crosswalk A, or walk down a bit to crosswalk B? Maybe crosswalk B is more open, but maybe there is an alleyway between A and B, increasing your chance of getting struck before you even get there...or maybe that alley isn't even usable, or any number of other non-obvious things you have no real way of "guesstimating" with any accuracy. You don't have these numbers, and neither do the inhabitants in the world of D&D.

The likelihood that it will actually matter whether it's a d6 mace or a d8 warhammer is pretty small for any given encounter (probably less than 1%), but it's an unnecessary risk. There's no reason to take that risk.

I get where you're trying to go, but I don't think you're going to get there. In D&D, there are simply FAR too many variables that will vastly mitigate that d6 vs. d8 damage die. There's an old saying...The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. If you just look at d6 versus d8, with nothing else at ALL.... d8 is 'obviously' better. But when you even add in a single little bit of chance above that...like the d6 guy having +1 to hit better than the d8 guy (or hell, even the d20 roll to hit by it's self), things start to change. When you toss in the myriad of choices that have nothing to do with "the numbers" into the mix, well, d6 versus d8 damage is totally and utterly pointless to differentiate.

Saelorn, nobody is arguing that 6 points of damage is less than 8 points of damage. What I, at least, am trying to explain to you is that you would never even get to the point where that 2-hp damage difference would be noticeable in any way. It's like putting a drop of pure water into the ocean; yes, it did, technically, just increase the purity of the ocean. And if you do that a billion times, it might be noticeable for a few seconds directly around where you added it...but wait 60 seconds and you're back to "no difference". There are simply FAR TOO MANY UNKNOWNS going on in an RPG for that 2-point difference to even add up to a fraction of a fraction of a percentage. And, to top it all off, there is no way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks that an adventurer in D&D would be able to even hazzard a guess as to which weapon is "better". They don't have the numbers, just like you don't have the numbers for your chances of getting hit by a vehicle. They can guess, and be completely off, you can guess, and be completely off. Niether them nor you will ever know if your guess was correct...even if they can't kill things as fast as the guy with the warhammer or if you don't get hit by a car. Maybe they were unlucky? Maybe you were? Maybe what they were hitting had more HP's? Maybe you were extra cautious and alert that day? Who knows?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So rather than simply admit that you contradicted yourself, and that you're making an issue out of a player's choice that would have, according to your own reckoning, a less than 1% chance of having any noticeable impact on the party's chances of success, you decide to double down on your misguided assertions. So be it. I have no patience for this sort of dishonest attempt to avoid admitting you were just wrong.

It's possible that I used the wrong word, if you have very specific and inflexible definitions of those words. I think a normal person would have understood what I was saying, in the manner I intended it, because the word is much more often used in the manner I'd intended it than in the manner you (mis)understood it. Semantics. Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The difference between a d6 and a d8 is unlikely to make an overwhelming difference to the ultimate outcome of any given encounter, especially as you get to higher levels. The impact on the adventure or campaign as a whole is significantly greater. Every time you fail to defeat an enemy, and it gains an extra turn with which to oppose the party, that's also your fault. If the orc gets one more swing at the Wizard, who then needs to drink a potion to offset that, then that lost wealth is your fault. It's a consequence which only came about because your Fighter is too stupid to know any better, in a world where efficacy can be objectively measured.

And it only takes one TPK to end a campaign that might have been running for months or years. Even a small chance is likely to occur, given a sufficient sample size.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Thats kind of the point. You have to guess. The guy with the Mace vs. the guy with the Warhammer, or the guy with the Longsword vs. the guy with the Shortsword? They are guessing that their weapon is best. They don't have "the numbers". They barely have anything even resembling scientific experimentation. They have Old Pennet, the warrior who told them Well, I've mostly seen folks using the Short Sword, and being it's kinda my countrymens favored sword, I learned it as well. I've seen some easteners using those long-swords though. All fine and good, but they seem unwieldy to me, swinging to and fro, hopping to connect, making big arching sweeps. Any defender worth his ale could see it coming! Now, a good, well placed thrust from a short sword? That, my boy, that's hard to see coming!.



I thought you were all up about "the numbers"? A guy with a d6 weapon versus a d8 weapon was "foolish" and a player choosing the lower over the higher was being a "jerk". Now it's not about the numbers? What gives?

Besides, if you don't have "the numbers" how do you know what will or will not increase your risk of death? Obvious things are obvious; wait until there is a red light and cross at the crosswalk. But non-obvious things...aren't. Do you cross at crosswalk A, or walk down a bit to crosswalk B? Maybe crosswalk B is more open, but maybe there is an alleyway between A and B, increasing your chance of getting struck before you even get there...or maybe that alley isn't even usable, or any number of other non-obvious things you have no real way of "guesstimating" with any accuracy. You don't have these numbers, and neither do the inhabitants in the world of D&D.

one of my good friends who we lost this year used to drive me up a wall for thinking like [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]

If you are a smart person who can and or enjoy reading, being a lawyer is way better for making money... but I have seen people like that enroll in the military, or culinary school... no number crunching could show them to have made the 'right choice'

I have friends who smoke, and know it is bad for them, and wish they never started... but still puff away, if I press them they will throw back in my face that I am obese...if I was worried about a long life why not eat a salad and go for a jog instead of eating at five guys and play a round of pandemic...

I have a friend who has a carry conceal permet and a hand gun, because he feels safer with it, and when we point out he is more likely to get shot with it then with out it he doesn't want to hear it...

When I was younger, and much dumber I knew dating Krystal was a bad idea... infact after our second date me and my best friend discussed it in length that it would never work, and she would end up breaking my heart, and the longer it went the more likely I was to become estranged of both friends and family... even in retrospect knowing how much that girl tore me up, I wonder if I would make a better choice today...

My step brother signed up for the military 3 weeks before my 21st birthday, the first week of September 2001. He did so because it was an easy way to get some skills and there was little to no chance of doing anything too dangerous. A few years later when his tour was up, and his extensions done my step mom begged him not to reup. He served 10+ years in the middle east, and is now home with some serious PTSD. He has told me many times he would do it all again, even the worst parts that he doesn't want to talk about.

people don't make 'by the numbers' good decisions most of the time. If they did it would be a boreing world full of scientists and lawyers and no one would smoke or drink.

 

[The Lich]

And it only takes one TPK to end a campaign that might have been running for months or years. Even a small chance is likely to occur, given a sufficient sample size.

"It's all your fault! You and your damned mace! If you had used a warhammer, we never would have died!!!"

If you can't see how ridiculous you sound in all this, there's nothing more I can say.

 

[Shiroiken]

In-game, my character would probably inquire as to why this other character has made such a decision. The tone of the question would depend on the nature of my character, but regardless of how condescending it may or may-not sound, a "bad" answer would likely make my character doubt the competence of this individual.

Saying that it is an enchanted mace, once wielded by the great priest Zyzzyva to depose the cruel tyrant Quijibo, is a "good" answer which is likely to garner some respect. Anything that has to do with tradition, sentimentality, or coolness, would be a "bad" answer. This is literally a matter of life-and-death. You need to demonstrate a modicum of common sense if I am to trust you with my life.

Thank you for answering the early questions, but you didn't really get to the heart of my point. You claim that your character would be the one to question the competency of the "sub-optimal" character (because you assume that all characters understand the exact nature of the physics of the game world - I don't, but to each his own), so what would your character do if faced with a "sub-optimal" party member? Would you refuse to adventure with them? If not, would you (the player) accept the consequences of offending said character (them slitting your throat in the night, or them going on a rampage against your loved ones while you were off adventuring)?

 

[MoonSong]

For a lot of people, the escapism in an RPG comes in the form of a power fantasy - we want to be powerful, so we play characters who are powerful. It's more true of D&D, in general, than it is of something like Call of Cthulhu.

I'm not saying that everyone has to play a competent character, but if you expect the other (presumably competent) characters to put up with your incompetence, then you need to give them a good reason. If you're just new to the system, and you don't know how to make a competent character, then the other players should help you with that until you get the hang of things.

If the game is complicated and full of traps and it requires an inordinate amount of work in order to understand the system well enough to build a competent character, then that's not generally a system I would recommend.

Well, I don't really feel empowered if I can't identify with my character on some way. And if having to be "competent" is the barrier entry, it doesn't really feel like the kind of fantasy I can enjoy. On my day to day life I already have to deal with everybody's expectations of competence, I prefer to relax and have fun on a world where your own imperfections aren't limits and mistakes won't really haunt you, where you can really achieve something through idealism and determination alone, where you can actually solve complex problems. Violence doesn't really come into it as of late. I can enjoy a combat PC from time to time, but everyday I enjoy them less.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Thats kind of the point. You have to guess. The guy with the Mace vs. the guy with the Warhammer, or the guy with the Longsword vs. the guy with the Shortsword? They are guessing that their weapon is best. They don't have "the numbers".

They don't have the numbers, but they have the observable in-game reality to which those numbers correspond. They can tell that a longsword will cut deeper into a wooden pole than a shortsword does, because it's heavier and better at cutting, which is what the damage die corresponds to. It should be obvious to everyone within the game world that you have a better chance of stopping a rampaging boar if you can hack at it with a longsword (or greatsword) than if you try to stab it with a shortsword -- unless you actually are trying to finesse it just right and hit a weak spot, in which case the lighter weapon will be a better tool for amplifying your technique. All of that should be obvious to any hunter or warrior who is familiar with weapons.

I thought you were all up about "the numbers"? A guy with a d6 weapon versus a d8 weapon was "foolish" and a player choosing the lower over the higher was being a "jerk". Now it's not about the numbers? What gives?

I was talking about probabilities, which can be difficult to calculate on the spot. The damage numbers actually are important, though. Damage is the difference between life and death, between "Let's continue this next week," and "What game should we try next week?"

In D&D, there are simply FAR too many variables that will vastly mitigate that d6 vs. d8 damage die.

There are a lot of variables, and the outcome can be difficult to fully predict with significant accuracy. But, just as some things are complicated, other things are dead simple. No matter what formula you're using, and whatever else is going on with ability scores and buffs and de-buffs and anything else you can imagine, the warhammer will always average one point of damage more than the mace. There can be a lot of things which make the difference less significant by comparison, but you will never find a situation where the mace is better than the warhammer.

It's like, I have no idea what your financial situation is right now, but if I give you either four dollars or five dollars, then you will have more if I give you five than you will have if I give you four. That factor separates out of your wealth equation entirely, and does not depend on any of the other (known or unknown) factors.

 

[pdegan2814]

It's possible that I used the wrong word, if you have very specific and inflexible definitions of those words. I think a normal person would have understood what I was saying, in the manner I intended it, because the word is much more often used in the manner I'd intended it than in the manner you (mis)understood it. Semantics. Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The difference between a d6 and a d8 is unlikely to make an overwhelming difference to the ultimate outcome of any given encounter, especially as you get to higher levels. The impact on the adventure or campaign as a whole is significantly greater. Every time you fail to defeat an enemy, and it gains an extra turn with which to oppose the party, that's also your fault. If the orc gets one more swing at the Wizard, who then needs to drink a potion to offset that, then that lost wealth is your fault. It's a consequence which only came about because your Fighter is too stupid to know any better, in a world where efficacy can be objectively measured.

And it only takes one TPK to end a campaign that might have been running for months or years. Even a small chance is likely to occur, given a sufficient sample size.

And if I'm at the table for that TPK and someone starts laying into one of the other players that his use of a d6 weapon instead of a d8 weapon caused us to get wiped out, I can guarantee you that's the last session I play with said complainer. People like that suck the fun right out of the game for me.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

"It's all your fault! You and your damned mace! If you had used a warhammer, we never would have died!!!"

If you can't see how ridiculous you sound in all this, there's nothing more I can say.

I can't wrap my head around this at all...

lets take a real TPK (I was the player who most likely was at fault for it) It was my first game using a battle matt. I had used minis rarely, and had mostly played and run theater of the mind. I made a 1st level fighter, and it was early 3e so I didn't even know how much that would suck.

I declaired a charge without counting squares, and the DM ruled that since I ended 1 sq too soon I wasted my turn. I laughed it off at the time, but the guy I charged did this little dance to avoid attacks of opp (that I had not even considered) and he charged our 1st level cleric and droped him in one hit... (it was an orc that had a great axe 1d12+x, and the cleric had 9hp... the cleric was at -yhp and bleeding out.) the rest of the fight is a blur in my mind, but we all died. 6 first level adventurers who saw 2 orcs standing over a ruined carage, we tpked.

It didn't matter if I had a short sword, a long sword, a +3 holy avenger, or a rock, but if I had a pole arm the encounter most likely would not have been as bad...

 

[The Lich]

On second thought, never mind.