How do I help the Fighter?

[Naoki00_]

This is happening in a Campaign I'm running and I'd like to ask for some advice on how to handle it so as not to tip the scale back and forth too much..

The party is made up of an 8th level fighter, an 8th level Wizard, an 8th level ranger/rogue (2 levels rogue), and an 8th level Halfling rogue. I allowed them a small bit of optimizing since I warned them the world would be rather unforgiving, but now I'm running into a problem I didn't quite see happening.

Basically the Fighter is lagging behind in the party's happenings, both in social situations, and in battles. I allowed him use of a template that bumps most of his stats and gives even MORE feats then a normal fighter (he gets a feat every level since her gets a fighter feat on the even levels and a bonus from the template on the odd levels), but either his selection hasn't been working or something to that effect. we allow any book we have access to though sadly that doesn't mean much when you don't have many.

He's lagging bad enough that even with a 24 strength, 22 constitution, and a 22 dexterity (all the mod of which is applied to his AC thanks to special armor) and he's still barely managing to scrape by with the encounters, which are made mostly to deal with the other party members then his.

He's getting a little frustrated but understands that it's not really the other members fault, but I'd really like to help him out a bit and bring him more to the other players levels, he is VERY passionate about staying pure melee as thats what his character would do..any idea's on how I can help?

 

[Lhorgrim]

Can you tell us a little more about the system you're running, his build type, and how he's failing within the encounters?

Is he too weak on offense or defense? Is it the character or the player's tactical decisions that are causing the trouble?

 

[ValhallaGH]

Rule set? Usual tactics the fighter uses? Weapon choices? Relative mobility (slower than other PCs? Can't fly but all others can? Everyone else starts fighting at 900' but he has to get close)?

General Guidelines for Fighters that Win:
Mobility items - flight, dimension door, and speed-boosting effects so that you can reach your foes.
Damage - hit as hard as you possibly can. Either with two weapons (hit twice as often) or with a full power attack (hit a lot harder). Sadly, the sword & board fighter (a personal favorite) is non-competitive for damage.
Damage 2 - Get lots of magical energy damage added to your weapon. Three +1d6 enhancements is a lot more damage than a +3 enhancement bonus (though the attack bonuses are nice).
Damage 3 - Giant in the Playground Forums - View Single Post - [3.X] Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos
Flexibility - you've got the most feats, use them to have lots of options. Trip, disarm, and sunder can all make a difference as long as the foe is vulnerable to them.
Multi-class - I love the Fighter class, but you can't succeed on it alone. Splash in some Barbarian (rage is a major combat buff), Rogue (sneak attack and enough skill points for non-combat abilities), or one of the fighting-man prestige classes.
Fighter Handbook - Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

Best of luck.

 

[Dioltach]

You could occasionally present them with an opponent with a high SR and immunity to sneak attacks.

 

[Naoki00_]

Rule set? Usual tactics the fighter uses? Weapon choices? Relative mobility (slower than other PCs? Can't fly but all others can? Everyone else starts fighting at 900' but he has to get close)?

General Guidelines for Fighters that Win:
Mobility items - flight, dimension door, and speed-boosting effects so that you can reach your foes.
Damage - hit as hard as you possibly can. Either with two weapons (hit twice as often) or with a full power attack (hit a lot harder). Sadly, the sword & board fighter (a personal favorite) is non-competitive for damage.
Damage 2 - Get lots of magical energy damage added to your weapon. Three +1d6 enhancements is a lot more damage than a +3 enhancement bonus (though the attack bonuses are nice).
Damage 3 - Giant in the Playground Forums - View Single Post - [3.X] Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos
Flexibility - you've got the most feats, use them to have lots of options. Trip, disarm, and sunder can all make a difference as long as the foe is vulnerable to them.
Multi-class - I love the Fighter class, but you can't succeed on it alone. Splash in some Barbarian (rage is a major combat buff), Rogue (sneak attack and enough skill points for non-combat abilities), or one of the fighting-man prestige classes.
Fighter Handbook - Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

Best of luck.

while this is helpful, it's not helpful in the way that I need really, as for our system we use basically the DnD 3.5 system with our own content. The character is a sword and shield fighter who's training to be a knight, but hasn't been able to prove his worth to get an order to accept him (thus no other classes, we don't go by the "i'm taking this class now" thing, you don't get any other class unless your character somehow would learn new things in story, so unless the whole party wants to go out of it's way for some reason, or he wants to change his character philosophy on combat, then he's just a fighter till he attains knighthood.)

We as a group boycott magic items, partly for story and partly because we feel their too much cheeseyness. Magic is something to not be toyed with in our world and so no caster in their right mind would try to bind magic into an item since magic is something purely chaotic and near uncontrollable unless you practice day in and day out, but pointing magic in a direction and sealing in something that doesn't are two different things.

He has a very good selection of feats that allow him a wide range of options, but the encounters I've been running are just flooring him for one reason or another, it's mostly due to a combination of smart enemies and range differences. His character also is portrayed as very brash and glory seeking, hoping to do amazing (sometimes stupid) things to gain the recognition he needs. Now I don't want him to die since I have several plot related hooks that are pretty reliant on his character and I really enjoy his portrayal and execution of it.

What I'm really hoping to figure out is something I could give him that would help him be on a bit more even ground with the casters and the enemy casters, something I as a DM could slip into the next treasure hoard (a rare occurance of a magic item thats not so cheesy) or something maybe a spirtual ancestor might give (bonuses or a level in a class that isn't a knight, but would assist him) or maybe even something like a special mount....I just don't really know what to give him that won't break the game.

 

[Naoki00_]

You could occasionally present them with an opponent with a high SR and immunity to sneak attacks.

I have many times, the other characters have several ways around such things though. usually a mixture of traps and undead repelling agents that are 'in world' things. Such as the bone of a saint being able to repel weaker undead, and the casters just making the floor/cave collapse on the enemy only to move the rubble afterward.

On a note i didn't make above, he does have the bad habit of being singled out. He could make use of the rogues sneak attack for his trips, but again, his 'knightly' attitude makes that something he won't do until more character development since him and the rogue don't get along in game.

 

[MichaelSomething]

The way in which you made your world and game seems to have the affect of seriously nerfing the fighter, and many will say they are the least likely to need nerfing (also based on what you said, I'm assuming you're using 3.5). No magic items actually hurt the fighter more then other classes. Having no splat hurts the fighter as well since core 3.5 doesn't really offer things that help versus non-melee opponents. The way you make encounters also hurts the fighters since they're at their best when they stand still and just full attack every round. Then again, you should consider making encounters considering your fighter's capabilities.

I recommend the following magical items....
Boots of Speed - This will make it easier for him to rush into melee, grants an extra attack when he full attacks, and slightly boost his defenses.
Cloak of Resistance - Because making saves is perhaps the most important defense in 3.5! It's just a boost to saves so it's cheese free!
Magic Weapon/Armor - They're considered vital items for a reason. Although I suspect simply giving him more more bonus won't solve the problem, it can't hurt.

The more I think about it, I don't think we can really solve your problem in a way you would like. The core 3.5 fighter is considered one of the weakest classes by optimizers everywhere, and your gaming style magnifies those weaknesses a good deal. Any suggestion that I could offer you would either not solve the problem, or be too "cheesy" for your taste.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This is happening in a Campaign I'm running and I'd like to ask for some advice on how to handle it so as not to tip the scale back and forth too much..

The party is made up of an 8th level fighter, an 8th level Wizard, an 8th level ranger/rogue (2 levels rogue), and an 8th level Halfling rogue. I allowed them a small bit of optimizing since I warned them the world would be rather unforgiving, but now I'm running into a problem I didn't quite see happening.

Basically the Fighter is lagging behind in the party's happenings, both in social situations, and in battles. I allowed him use of a template that bumps most of his stats and gives even MORE feats then a normal fighter (he gets a feat every level since her gets a fighter feat on the even levels and a bonus from the template on the odd levels), but either his selection hasn't been working or something to that effect. we allow any book we have access to though sadly that doesn't mean much when you don't have many.

He's lagging bad enough that even with a 24 strength, 22 constitution, and a 22 dexterity (all the mod of which is applied to his AC thanks to special armor) and he's still barely managing to scrape by with the encounters, which are made mostly to deal with the other party members then his.

He's getting a little frustrated but understands that it's not really the other members fault, but I'd really like to help him out a bit and bring him more to the other players levels, he is VERY passionate about staying pure melee as thats what his character would do..any idea's on how I can help?

Problems I'm seeing:

There's no cleric. The fighter takes the hits (since he's drawing them, that's part of his job), but is then left weak for the rest of the day. Non-magical healing is very slow, and healing potions are expensive and not efficient in combat when you need one (eg something just critted the fighter).

You're nerfing items. There is no good fix for this in 3rd Edition. There's some "low-magic rules" that you can probably find in Unearthed Arcana, but they're not good.

This is because magic items are not "balanced" (or the main combat system is not balanced between offense and defense). Items that give offensive bonuses are worth less than items that give a defensive bonus. You boost your BAB every level (or every other level) depending on class. Your offense will thus increase. Whichever stat you use to attack increases every four levels usually, without items. You're a lot weaker on the defensive though. Your saving throws increase, but not as fast as attacking save DCs (which always use the caster's highest stat and rise as fast as a good save). Your AC only increases if you use Dex (or, as a monk, Wisdom) to boost your AC - but there's a massive glut of items needed to boost that - the Ring of Protection, the Amulet of Natural Armor, magic armor, magic shields...

These characters will always be hurting, even if they had good healing magic.

Dex 22 plus full plate that gives full AC isn't that impressive at that level. Yes, that's +16 AC (including the shield), but an 8th-level fighter in a typical game would have had +2 full plate and a +2 shield and +1 Dex for a +15 bonus... 1 point less. Assuming nothing to boost natural armor and no ring of protection, which an 8th-level fighter might have gotten their first. Even with the matching AC, your fighter is likely hurting due to lack of healing resources.

Items give a fighter bigger bonuses than they give non-spellcasters. On the other hands, fighters are very heavily item-dependent. A wizard missing a Headband of Intellect is missing a few bonus spells, and more crucially, 3 points off of save DC. A fighter needs that Strength-boosting item and a magic weapon for offensive purpose. (Note that rogues are also affected by this; it's hard to pull of a sneak attack if you can't hit, and you want your Gloves of Dexterity and magic short sword to ensure this... with your lower BAB.)

For defenses, a fighter needs magic armor, maybe a magic shield, a ring of protection, maybe an amulet of natural armor, and more options as they gain levels, just to make up for AC never improving. For defenses, a wizard needs to be able to cast Mirror Image, and have a backup in case what he's facing has true seeing or something.

What surprises me is that the fighter's hurting the most. The ranger is a pretty weak class in 3rd Edition, and the rogue, while not being as weak, has fragility issues that should be affecting it even more than the fighter (especially without items).

Other than the rogue, none of these PCs get social skills as class skills. I'm not sure why the fighter is doing worse than the other PCs.

 

[Greg K]

Throw in some Book of Iron Might (Malhavoc)?

With the maneuver system, the Fighter and other classes can do cool things with their based upon fighting skill (not needing a natural 20 to hit after maneuver penalties) and knowing how/where to strike. For example, some things that they can do include:

Blind opponent 1d4 rounds
Deafen opponent 1d6 minutes
Daze opponents 1 round
Stun opponent 1 round
Inflict area damage
Inflict extra damage
Inflict ability score damage -2 to one attribute
Inflict penalties to Attacks, AC, checks or saves
Disable natural attacks (prevent use of one physical attack)
Disable Special Ability (prevent use of one Su or Ex ability)
Force Movement
Knockdown

 

[was]

-There are two prestige classes that you might want to refer to, in order to build a campaign-specific prestige class for your non-magic item using fighter. Take a look at the Forsaker prestige class in the Masters of the Wild (3.0) and the Occult Slayer prestige class in the Complete Warrior (3.5).