How Do Metamagic Rods Work For Preparation Spellcasters?

[wildstarsreach]

Do you mean extending the casting time?

-Hyp.

Yes, from cast time of x to one round and so on.

 

[Li Shenron]

Huh? There is not the slightest indication, that it would be used spontaneously.

It might be an intuitive impression gained when reading the paragraph, I will gladly agree to that, but there is really nothing in there, which actually says so, and which does not also work equally well in that other context.

"The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the Enlarge Spell feat".

It might be read both ways, but I'm sure that if this was meant like you think, it would have said:

"The wielder can prepare (or cast spontaneously, in case of a Sorcerer) up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the Enlarge Spell feat".

If I am a Wizard and read that sentence, when I'm casting a spell I think "hey, I can actually cast this Enlarged".

 

[Thanee]

It might be read both ways...

That's all I'm saying, there's no text, that clearly says so. And there is also the school of thought, that for an item to make a fundamental change like allowing wizards to suddenly spontaneously apply metamagic, it should maybe make some sort of mentioning of this in the item's description. In fact, it has to, in order to work that way, since items do not normally do what they do not say they do.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

It's not 'the wielder can use the feat' despite saying 'the rod confers the ability to use the feat'?

It's not. It's clearly a mistake by the writer.

1) '(the rod) only (confers) the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day'

2) "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the XY feat"

You are giving all weight to the first, despite the fact that it is a sentence in the middle of an explanation about secondary things (what the rod "doesn't do"). And you're then trying to justify the second assuming that it can still be "logical" if you assume that preparation is implicit and doesn't need to be mentioned.

I'm instead just trying to tell that the second, in its simplicity, makes perfect sense if you assume the opposite (that preparation isn't mentioned because it is not in fact part of the scenario at all).

I know that as soon as you consider the first, which is anyway an accessory sentence to help explaining something else, then the whole text is not perfectly logical. But your concern with "flawless logic" is making you miss the real meaning You're trying to derive the truth from all the smallest details, but you don't try to see the (imperfect) bigger picture.

 

[Thanee]

2) "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the XY feat"

This works just as it is written there, when a wizard first prepares the spells and then casts the spells with the rod, because that is as though using the ... feat to me (the big picture, which includes the whole feat usage, not just one part of it ).

...but you don't try to see the (imperfect) bigger picture.

To me, the bigger picture goes even beyond what the author might have wanted to say... as explained above, I simply see the rods as too powerful and thus unbalancing, if they work that way. Besides the obvious issues silliness with the casting time increase for sorcerers spontaneous casters only.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

To me, the bigger picture goes even beyond what the author might have wanted to say... as explained above, I simply see the rods as too powerful and thus unbalancing, if they work that way. Besides the obvious issues silliness with the casting time increase for sorcerers spontaneous casters only.

I didn't like them either since the start, just as I dislike nearly everything that tries to make preparation casters (nearly) as good as sorcerers with metamagic... They are quite too powerful and in fact I don't let my players find them on sale (at least crafting has some steep feat & xp cost...). Plus I gladly house-rule that sorcerers don't need increased casting time, so the rods have a slightly reduced difference in benefit between Wiz and Sor.

But that's my own idea how they should be (actually IMO they should also be quite more expensive).
My idea of how they are by the rules is what I wrote in my previous posts (except the first, which mentioned my own changes).

 

[KarinsDad]

... now what do you do with the Quicken Rods?

Drop them from the game completely.

Spontaneous Quicken should not be allowed ever.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Drop them from the game completely.

Spontaneous Quicken should not be allowed ever.

As written, and then interpreted, only a wizard or cleric can get the benefit of a quicken rod.

One this we did learn from this discussion, in our last campaign, we a a radiant servant with quicken and divine metamagic who was quickening spontaneous cure spells by using turn attempts. We now know this to be wrong unless the Divine metamagic is another exception.

 

[Thanee]

As written, and then interpreted, only a waizard or cleric can get the benefit of a quicken rod.

Yep. Unless you move away from the Core rules, that is. With Metamagic Specialist a Sorcerer should be able to use rods without increasing the casting time, at least I think so. It's certainly not 100% clear.

One this we did learn from this discussion, in our last campaign, we a a radiant servnat with quicken and divine metamagic who was quickening spontaneous cure spells by uding turn attempts. We now know this to be wrong unless the Divine metamagic is another exception.

Hmm... it says 'apply a metamagic feat' there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

As written, and then interpreted, only a waizard or cleric can get the benefit of a quicken rod.

But you said that yes, by your reading a wizard using the rod extends casting time, didn't you?

-Hyp.