D&D 5E How do you avoid overshadowing while applying ability scores as rolled?

[billd91]

In our group, during session 0, we each roll a series of 4d6k3. One each. Not three, not two because the first one was lame. One. Including the DM.

Then, all series become available to everyone. If one is clearly superior, all players chose the same but typically, there are two or three worth considering.

I prefer to have stats rolled in the games I GM, same with hit points (though we do roll twice and take the better to reduce the likelihood of rolling a 1 and skew the expected value a little higher). I like players to discover their characters and maybe have a few surprises and detest dumping a stat to have points to raise another one. But that doesn't mean I'm not open to experimentation.

So we did this in our current Pathfinder game. Everyone (including me) rolled an array, I put them on the whiteboard, and players could choose the array they wanted. Between the 5 player results and mine, there were 2 that were outright dominated and so were left off. That gave the other players 4 arrays to choose from.

 

[Oofta]

I prefer to have stats rolled in the games I GM, same with hit points (though we do roll twice and take the better to reduce the likelihood of rolling a 1 and skew the expected value a little higher). I like players to discover their characters and maybe have a few surprises and detest dumping a stat to have points to raise another one. But that doesn't mean I'm not open to experimentation.

So we did this in our current Pathfinder game. Everyone (including me) rolled an array, I put them on the whiteboard, and players could choose the array they wanted. Between the 5 player results and mine, there were 2 that were outright dominated and so were left off. That gave the other players 4 arrays to choose from.

While this is veering into "why I like/dislike" territory ... if I were in a group that demanded rolls this would be okay.

I guess I don't really care about what numbers people assign where. Yes, with point buy generally have a "dump" stat but don't you effectively have that anyway? In virtually every case you're going to have a low number which becomes a de facto "dump" stat. You gotta put it somewhere.

The last character I created used point buy had a low score of 10 because it made sense for my vision of the PC*. Was that 10 a "dump" stat?

*Which is probably another reason I dislike random abilities - I have a vision for a PC and then generate numbers. If I really wanted randomness I'd randomize everything from placement of ability scores to race to class and background.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I prefer to have stats rolled in the games I GM, same with hit points (though we do roll twice and take the better to reduce the likelihood of rolling a 1 and skew the expected value a little higher). I like players to discover their characters and maybe have a few surprises and detest dumping a stat to have points to raise another one. But that doesn't mean I'm not open to experimentation.

So we did this in our current Pathfinder game. Everyone (including me) rolled an array, I put them on the whiteboard, and players could choose the array they wanted. Between the 5 player results and mine, there were 2 that were outright dominated and so were left off. That gave the other players 4 arrays to choose from.

Here's a variation on this strategy: The Matrix

Basically, everyone rolls 3d6 (or 4d6k3) six times, and records them in order in stacked rows until you have a 6x6 table of scores. Players then coordinate picking which array they would like for their character. Stats stay in the order picked. You can pick left to right, right to left, up to down, down to up, or any of the diagonals. Only one player per stat array/direction chosen. Anyway, the link is nicely detailed on how it works.

Still could have some discrepency between the PCs ability scores, but part of the process is to negotiate as a group which PC gets what array in a way that best benefits the party.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I think this tone is a little harsh, but I somewhat agree with the sentiment: it would be great if everybody saw the game this way, but the reality is that a lot of players don't want to play Merry to somebody else's Aragorn.

It's also great if we try to show those players a different way of thinking about the game. And there's no guarantee they'll be converts.

This I get. Also, good use of "Yes and..." to boot. Thank you

 

[Umbran]

Frankly, I’m a little confused at this attack, from a moderator no less, as I generally try to be positive here. Am I misinterpreting your intent? Maybe you are having a bad day?

It wasn't an attack. My apologies if the prhasing left you feeling that way. It was a question on what your post meant.

The thread asks, "How do I manage this problem?" Your response was, effectively, "I never had this problem."
And while we get some insight into your personal attitude, But that's only one part of the scenario. We didn't get any of the other relevant details of the other players, the characters, or the GM's choices in play.

So, as stated, not really useful to the request... yet. But we could get it there.

So, I started digging around the expectations and assumptions. I admit, I expected that you'd have to answer "No, I can't expect them all to be like me," and that would then lead us to what the differences might me, and how we might handle them.

 

[Lanefan]

How do I avoid 'overshadowing'? I don't. I ignore it. And we've used random rolls* (assigned) since forever.

If a player finds a character isn't working out as envisioned there's nothing stopping that character from wandering off and retiring, assuming of course that the game world hasn't killed it off first. (if you're trying to run a no-death or no-turnover campaign then I'm afraid you're in part the author of your own problem)

Also - and someone else already hit these way upthread but they bear repeating - a player can always run more than one character side-along, or bring in a hench or two.

But most important is that there's far more to any character than its stats. You can only be overshadowed if you let it happen. My example from 3e, where stats are somewhat more important than the system I usually play, is this: due to my crappy rolling my main PC had the lowest overall stats in the party by a significant amount, yet by the time she hit her final demise (14 adventures and 7 real-world years later) she had become the longest-serving party member and had won a bootful of our annual awards in the process....and in all that time she was NEVER overshadowed!

* - looking at your other thread title, I have to say 3d6 in order is - though realistic - more than a bit harsh, and is inevitably going to lead to a fair amount of PC suicide-by-Orc until the players end up with characters who are at least somewhat numeretically viable.

 

[Oofta]

I've seen a fair number of posts saying how awesome random rolls are from a player's perspective. All I can say is that I wouldn't play in a game that used it because life is just too short, but that's just me. You like it, great.

So my question is not from a player's perspective. What is it from a DM's perspective that you hope to gain?

• Force people to play a different class/race combo? What makes you think Bob won't just play the handful of PCs he always plays? Most people have at most a handful of archetypes that they enjoy playing.
• You hate "sameness"? Why does that matter? If you don't look at a PC's sheet, how would you ever know?
• Related to the above, why not just use a standard array and randomize number placement?
• You want some people to be (numerically) better at being an adventurer than others? I assume this isn't the case, but it is the result of straight rolls.

Just food for thought. Again, if your group likes this kind of thing have fun.

 

[S'mon]

I like how the random stats makes the PCs feel real! Organic. Pointbuy PCs tend to feel constructed.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The last character I created used point buy had a low score of 10 because it made sense for my vision of the PC*. Was that 10 a "dump" stat?

No, I think generally a stat has to be giving a negative modifier to be considered a dump stat. Or a stat becomes a dump stat because it is the one that almost everyone will assign their lowest score. And which edition of D&D you are playing would determine which stat that would generally be. For example, Charisma back in the 1st Ed AD&D days, or perhaps Wisdom for all the non-Clerics.

 

[billd91]

I guess I don't really care about what numbers people assign where. Yes, with point buy generally have a "dump" stat but don't you effectively have that anyway? In virtually every case you're going to have a low number which becomes a de facto "dump" stat. You gotta put it somewhere.

Yes, you have to put it somewhere, but notice where you got that dump stat - it was an independently rolled variable. You didn't get it because you pumped those points into something else. You made do with what the dice provided. There was no quid pro quo. That's a different psychological situation to be in.