D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

[overgeeked]

This has come up again and again, so here’s a thread about it. 5E players and referees, how do you define “mother may I” style play?

 

[CreamCloud0]

This has come up again and again, so here’s a thread about it. 5E players and referees, how do you define “mother may I” style play?

I don’t know if there’s a difference between the play-style and the specific occurrences but the core of MMI is not having any concrete rules or abilities to leverage doing something with your character and thus being entirely at the mercy of your GMs whims,

At one extreme it’s just ‘i want to jump the stair railings and stab the guy below me’ and at the other end it’s ‘the fighter has been statistically proven to require magic items to keep up with the scaling of casters, boy I sure wish there was any that would turn up that My McSwordguy could actually use’, in the middle somewhere is ‘I’d love if we might actually run into some undead so i can use my priest’s turn undead or the plot would go to my ranger’s favoured terrain’

 

[Mind of tempest]

I don’t know if there’s a difference between the play-style and the specific occurrences but the core of MMI is not having any concrete rules or abilities to leverage doing something with your character and thus being entirely at the mercy of your GMs whims,

At one extreme it’s just ‘i want to jump the stair railings and stab the guy below me’ and at the other end it’s ‘the fighter has been statistically proven to require magic items to keep up with the scaling of casters, boy I sure wish there was any that would turn up that My McSwordguy could actually use’, in the middle somewhere is ‘I’d love if we might actually run into some undead so i can use my priest’s turn undead or the plot would go to my ranger’s favoured terrain’

as far as a summary of it goes this is likely better than what I could ever put.

 

[payn]

MMI is not a playstyle, its a critique, a complaint of rulings over rules style play. Early in D&D, the rules were simpler and covered far fewer instances of play. The GM was expected to arbitrate ambiguous situations as needed. Most groups figured it out at the table, really, they had no other recourse. Though, when the rise of organized play came to be, a need for more standardized rulesets became desired. Eventually, you had a rules over rulings system designed. As many mechanics and sub-systems as possible were designed and introduced into D&D to consistently cover play situations fairly. Folks then began to feel that the system was too restrictive, and that a little table interpretation was actually to be desired. So, the system was designed for basic coverage and guidance is provided for GMs to make rulings as they become necessary.

The right spot between the two playstyles is obviously subjective to taste. When "Mother, may I" is invoked, it usually means that the rules are considered inadequate for the purposed situation for the person using it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

MMI is not a playstyle, its a critique, a complaint of rulings over rules style play. Early in D&D, the rules were simpler and covered far fewer instances of play. The GM was expected to arbitrate ambiguous situations as needed. Most groups figured it out at the table, really, they had no other recourse. Though, when the rise of organized play came to be, a need for more standardized rulesets became desired. Eventually, you had a rules over rulings system designed. As many mechanics and sub-systems as possible were designed and introduced into D&D to consistently cover play situations fairly. Folks then began to feel that the system was too restrictive, and that a little table interpretation was actually to be desired. So, the system was designed for basic coverage and guidance is provided for GMs to make rulings as they become necessary.

The right spot between the two playstyles is obviously subjective to taste. When "Mother, may I" is invoked, it usually means that the rules are considered inadequate for the purposed situation for the person using it.

I really like this.

 

[Cruentus]

MMI is not a playstyle, its a critique, a complaint of rulings over rules style play. Early in D&D, the rules were simpler and covered far fewer instances of play. The GM was expected to arbitrate ambiguous situations as needed. Most groups figured it out at the table, really, they had no other recourse. Though, when the rise of organized play came to be, a need for more standardized rulesets became desired. Eventually, you had a rules over rulings system designed. As many mechanics and sub-systems as possible were designed and introduced into D&D to consistently cover play situations fairly. Folks then began to feel that the system was too restrictive, and that a little table interpretation was actually to be desired. So, the system was designed for basic coverage and guidance is provided for GMs to make rulings as they become necessary.

The right spot between the two playstyles is obviously subjective to taste. When "Mother, may I" is invoked, it usually means that the rules are considered inadequate for the purposed situation for the person using it.

I'd also add that when MMI is invoked, it is because the player disagrees with a decision by the DM, and chose to complain on a forum or twitter or whatever rather than talk to their DM about it. So it could be as simple as a stylistic difference, a game interpretation difference, or an expectations difference.

I've never seen or heard of that "style of play" in my 45+ years of playing DnD and many other RPGs.

 

[payn]

I'd also add that when MMI is invoked, it is because the player disagrees with a decision by the DM, and chose to complain on a forum or twitter or whatever rather than talk to their DM about it. So it could be as simple as a stylistic difference, a game interpretation difference, or an expectations difference.

I've never seen or heard of that "style of play" in my 45+ years of playing DnD and many other RPGs.

Well, that's true, but folks also bring it up when talking about system design. Especially, during edition churns. I see the term MMI like I do railroad. It is a nuanced concept that has been boiled into a phrase (typically intentionally derogatory) that the line of comfort has been crossed. Where that line lies is different from person to person.

 

[SakanaSensei]

All of the situations I can remember that have come up in games that I would call "Mother May I" tend to come from a breakdown in playstyles. Specifically, when the DM at the table wants characters to act in character and the players want a mechanical benefit.

I have two main examples that end up contributing to this phenomenon the most. The first is Find Familiar (and other pets, I suppose) using Help to grant advantage on something. I've had tables in the past that will ask "can I get advantage from Fluffles," and then when the DM asks "how is Fluffles helping you leap this 15 foot gap?" the players will kind of get huffy about it. 'Just give me the advantage, jeeze,' they seem to say.

The other, very similar contributor is the Guidance cantrip for almost identical reasons. "How are you guiding in this moment? Are you ok with the guard you're trying to persuade being very put off by you walking by, chanting mystic words and doing wiggle fingers toward the person he's having a conversation with? Are you aware that this isn't a reaction and needs to be cast before I call for a roll?" These are all questions that are met with similar frustration by a certain subset of players, who begin to feel that they're asking for permission to "just play the game."

Some tables don't run into the MMI problem at all, in my experience. It only comes up when there's mismatched expectations.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree to the above. MMI is usually just used as a slight at people who think the DM is the arbiter of the rules.
I am having a hard time to stay diplomatic here..
lets say, some players want hard and fast rules to resolve any possible situation, some are more happy to have a dialogue with the DM.

 

[payn]

Here is an example, not taking for an existing game, for discussion;

1. Seductive; spend an inspiration point to gain advantage in a social situation where the NPC finds your character attractive.
2. Unusually attractive: spend an inspiration point to gain advantage in a social situation by exploiting your good looks.

So, the first example is a mechanic that relies, obviously, on GM interpretation. The player will always have to ask if it is applicable. The second example, is just a mechanic the player can activate when they have the currency and everyone knows how it works. There is no condition for the second mechanic. Folks sensitive to MMI would likely prefer the second mechanic.