D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

[Ovinomancer]

That's what I thought. So it's simply one's preferences for heavier rules and less referee authority couched in a snide dismissal of the reverse preference, i.e. rules light games and referee authority-based play.

Disagree.

Mother May I is a game where one person has total authority over the actions of the other players. It's not about rules, it's about authority. An RPG that has strong MMI tendencies will be one that has the authority to dictate outcomes entirely centered in one person, typically the GM. A game that has less will have structures that divert outcome authority to system. A game that has very little will have all of the authority for outcomes placed in system, typically in a way that says which participant gets to narrate the outcome and/or how they're allowed to do so. When looking at MMI, you're really looking at the authority structure within the game. This isn't really a claim that a game is bad, or doesn't work. 5e is a game that has a high amount of MMI because the GM is afforded the clear authority to narrate outcomes without reference to the system, and even when using the system has the authority to ignore/alter it how they wish. However, a table can have a social contract that adds restrictions to this authority above and beyond and you can have a game of 5e that is less MMI.

There are very light rules systems that are very low on MMI. There are very heavy systems that are high in MMI. Weight of rules isn't a good guide. Looking at how authorities are structured in the game is a better approach.

 

[payn]

Disagree.

Mother May I is a game where one person has total authority over the actions of the other players. It's not about rules, it's about authority. An RPG that has strong MMI tendencies will be one that has the authority to dictate outcomes entirely centered in one person, typically the GM. A game that has less will have structures that divert outcome authority to system. A game that has very little will have all of the authority for outcomes placed in system, typically in a way that says which participant gets to narrate the outcome and/or how they're allowed to do so. When looking at MMI, you're really looking at the authority structure within the game. This isn't really a claim that a game is bad, or doesn't work. 5e is a game that has a high amount of MMI because the GM is afforded the clear authority to narrate outcomes without reference to the system, and even when using the system has the authority to ignore/alter it how they wish. However, a table can have a social contract that adds restrictions to this authority above and beyond and you can have a game of 5e that is less MMI.

There are very light rules systems that are very low on MMI. There are very heavy systems that are high in MMI. Weight of rules isn't a good guide. Looking at how authorities are structured in the game is a better approach.

Excellent points. It is often seen as rules heavy games are more avoidant of MMI, but not necessarily the case. The level of agency and authority is the key element.

 

[overgeeked]

Disagree.

Okay.

Mother May I is a game where one person has total authority over the actions of the other players. It's not about rules, it's about authority. An RPG that has strong MMI tendencies will be one that has the authority to dictate outcomes entirely centered in one person, typically the GM. A game that has less will have structures that divert outcome authority to system. A game that has very little will have all of the authority for outcomes placed in system, typically in a way that says which participant gets to narrate the outcome and/or how they're allowed to do so. When looking at MMI, you're really looking at the authority structure within the game.

Where does the disparity in authority come from if not the rules? It's the rules of the game that define these relationships.

This isn't really a claim that a game is bad, or doesn't work.

That's certainly not how the phrase "mother may I" is used given posters in this thread freely admit it's meant to be derogatory and insulting.

There are very light rules systems that are very low on MMI.

Any specific examples in mind?

 

[SakanaSensei]

Disagree.

Mother May I is a game where one person has total authority over the actions of the other players. It's not about rules, it's about authority. An RPG that has strong MMI tendencies will be one that has the authority to dictate outcomes entirely centered in one person, typically the GM. A game that has less will have structures that divert outcome authority to system. A game that has very little will have all of the authority for outcomes placed in system, typically in a way that says which participant gets to narrate the outcome and/or how they're allowed to do so. When looking at MMI, you're really looking at the authority structure within the game. This isn't really a claim that a game is bad, or doesn't work. 5e is a game that has a high amount of MMI because the GM is afforded the clear authority to narrate outcomes without reference to the system, and even when using the system has the authority to ignore/alter it how they wish. However, a table can have a social contract that adds restrictions to this authority above and beyond and you can have a game of 5e that is less MMI.

There are very light rules systems that are very low on MMI. There are very heavy systems that are high in MMI. Weight of rules isn't a good guide. Looking at how authorities are structured in the game is a better approach.

PBtA is probably a good place to look for low MMI, but it is definitely a different experience that some people don’t like. I know my table likes the more traditional split of authority, but we also play together every week and there’s a lot of trust built up that things will work out generally how players think they should through interpersonal-vibe-magic.

 

[payn]

That's certainly not how the phrase "mother may I" is used given posters in this thread freely admit it's meant to be derogatory and insulting.

I want to make sure the focus is on the concept of the game style and authority mechanics, and not a person directly. You may personally see it as an attack on your playstyle, but its not meant to be an attack on you. Used like railroading, not munchkin.

 

[overgeeked]

Like many of these derogatory remarks, they do contain legit concepts. Its just a very clear flag planting of where the person's line in the sand is. My advice is to either ignore the insult and focus on the example and discussion, or just ignore the comment if it seems like a position stand in place of any genuine interest of discussion.

I want to make sure the focus is on the concept of the game style and authority mechanics, and not a person directly. You may personally see it as an attack on your playstyle, but its not meant to be an attack on you. Used like railroading, not munchkin.

But it is an attack. As you said before. It's a derogatory remark that's meant as an insult. If you want the focus to be on the discussion, or the ideas behind the MMI comment, maybe don't use insulting and derogatory phrases, especially ones you clearly mean to be (and admit to being used as) insulting and derogatory.

 

[Vaalingrade]

This thread is basically going to be a victory dance over wheedling specific words out of one person's mouth that 'proves' a point about a larger group now isn't it?

 

[payn]

But it is an attack. As you said before. It's a derogatory remark that's meant as an insult. If you want the focus to be on the discussion, or the ideas behind the MMI comment, maybe don't use insulting and derogatory phrases, especially ones you clearly mean to be (and admit to being used as) insulting and derogatory.

Where as with railroad, I can use linear instead and have a constructive discussion. I am not sure what the best neutral term for MMI is?

 

[SakanaSensei]

Where as with railroad, I can use linear instead and have a constructive discussion. I am not sure what the best neutral term for MMI is?

Does “GM fiat” have the same level of negative connotation? Is it even the same thing?

 

[payn]

Does “GM fiat” have the same level of negative connotation? Is it even the same thing?

Hmm, its close but not exact. I see it more as a player doesn't want to have to plead their case to the GM for a ruling on one or more subjects. Solicit authority?