D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

[tetrasodium]

That's what I thought. So it's simply one's preferences for heavier rules and less referee authority couched in a snide dismissal of the reverse preference, i.e. rules light games and referee authority-based play.

From a GM standpoint I have more room to tinker with heavier rules when I feel like there needs to be some one off mold breaking edge case or whatever than when the rules are malformed & tossed to the GM to finish them regularly. When the rules are on the heavier side I can say "this is a one off" or "this one monster/item/etc has a unique ability" & run it accordingly because exceptions are the exception. When a rules "light" game flings loose rule after loose rule at the GM to finish I have less room as a GM because everything is an exception & a one off is no real different from the norm so nobody remembers if it was a one off or not later when it's in dispute.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Where as with railroad, I can use linear instead and have a constructive discussion. I am not sure what the best neutral term for MMI is?

MMI is more about clarity than feelings. Everyone understands how MMI works, so pointing it out how some RPGs utilize similar mechanics with that term is getting to the quick of things. I don't think 5e functions without a good bit of MMI, and I wouldn't want to play that game if it didn't -- it's part of it's DNA. MMI is a game that young children play and find fun, and there's no reason that adults can't find fun in a more complex version of it. I certainly can. But, also, being aware that 5e has this strong tendency gives me the understanding necessary to approach it in a way respectful of that and to minimize it or maximize it as wanted by my table. To me, this is like knowing where the dip in the road is -- I can avoid it if want or barrel into it looking for air if I want.

 

[overgeeked]

Where as with railroad, I can use linear instead and have a constructive discussion. I am not sure what the best neutral term for MMI is?

Except that linear and railroad aren't synonyms. A linear adventure is not necessarily a railroad. A railroad is where the referee negates player agency to force the referee's preferred outcome, whatever the scale (from quantum ogre on up to completion of the campaign). A linear adventure simply has a predefined beginning, middle, and end. If the players willingly follow that line, without the referee negating the players' agency to choose otherwise, it's not a railroad. If the players try to deviate from that line, and the referee negates player agency to force the players to stick within the referee's preferred outcome, i.e. strictly following the linear adventure, then it becomes a railroad.

Does “GM fiat” have the same level of negative connotation? Is it even the same thing?

It doesn't to me, but a lot of people seem to think it is negative and use it as such. Likely those who doen't like the idea of a referee with authority.

 

[payn]

MMI is more about clarity than feelings. Everyone understands how MMI works, so pointing it out how some RPGs utilize similar mechanics with that term is getting to the quick of things. I don't think 5e functions without a good bit of MMI, and I wouldn't want to play that game if it didn't -- it's part of it's DNA. MMI is a game that young children play and find fun, and there's no reason that adults can't find fun in a more complex version of it. I certainly can. But, also, being aware that 5e has this strong tendency gives me the understanding necessary to approach it in a way respectful of that and to minimize it or maximize it as wanted by my table. To me, this is like knowing where the dip in the road is -- I can avoid it if want or barrel into it looking for air if I want.

Right, its totally a way of game for some folks. How to term it in a way that doesn't poison the well? Since "Mother May I" isn't meant to be respectful of the concept.

 

[bloodtide]

MMI does not have much to do with rules. You can have books full of rules, on top of rules, on top of rules. But ultimately the rules don't matter much as in D&D the DM has all the power, authority and control over the game. Whatever the DM says IS the game reality.

There are some blocks of rules and some DMs that might get thrown for a loop when a player says "my character jumps over and swings and hits...page 111 says so!". Such a DM might look over page 111 and agree "yup, that is what happens!" But that is only some DMs.

Plenty of other DMs don't care much about what "page 111 says". And plenty of DMs ignore pages and rules on a whim. That aside, any clever savvy DM can use the rules to make or not make anything happen. And beyond that, the DM can make the game reality so things happen or don't happen.

Some other games have either no DM or rules that give the players power, authority and control.

There are games where say a character walks into a town and the player says "Oh my best friend lives in this town and he is super rich and owes me four big favors." And "POP" best friend appears ready to grant four big favors. The Dm in this game has to do whatever the player says: it's in the rules.

D&D is not like that. A player can ASK the DM to make them a best friend in town. And the player can ASK the for the best friend to give the character free stuff. And on and on asking for each thing. But the DM is free to do whatever they want on a whim. But the player can keep asking "DM may I".......

 

[payn]

Except that linear and railroad aren't synonyms. A linear adventure is not necessarily a railroad. A railroad is where the referee negates player agency to force the referee's preferred outcome, whatever the scale (from quantum ogre on up to completion of the campaign). A linear adventure simply has a predefined beginning, middle, and end. If the players willingly follow that line, without the referee negating the players' agency to choose otherwise, it's not a railroad. If the players try to deviate from that line, and the referee negates player agency to force the players to stick within the referee's preferred outcome, i.e. strictly following the linear adventure, then it becomes a railroad.

Well even that is up to interpretation. For some, there is no difference between a GM railroad, and a GM linear adventure. Essentially, there is a tolerance level for any amount of predefined gamemastering. So, how do folks talk about GM authority and the levels they are comfortable with, without going straight to MMI?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Right, its totally a way of game for some folks. How to term it in a way that doesn't poison the well? Since "Mother May I" isn't meant to be respectful of the concept.

I find it's a good descriptor and quickly and clearly passes the concept it's meant to pass. I'm finding myself less interested in the 'let's find the one term that the detractors will accept' game because it's like global thermonuclear war.

 

[overgeeked]

From a GM standpoint I have more room to tinker with heavier rules when I feel like there needs to be some one off mold breaking edge case or whatever than when the rules are malformed & tossed to the GM to finish them regularly. When the rules are on the heavier side I can say "this is a one off" or "this one monster/item/etc has a unique ability" & run it accordingly because exceptions are the exception. When a rules "light" game flings loose rule after loose rule at the GM to finish I have less room as a GM because everything is an exception & a one off is no real different from the norm so nobody remembers if it was a one off or not later when it's in dispute.

That's...huh. I take almost the opposite point of view. The more rules there are, the more constrained the referee is. The fewer the rules, the more freedom the referee has to simply create. But then I also think that there's no need for the vast majority of rules presented in the vast majority of games. Most of them simply get in the way of playing. RPGs are an elaborate game of "let's pretend" with dice. We just need enough rules to prevent people from arguing about whether one character shot another character and that's it. Everything else is pure imagination.

 

[overgeeked]

Right, its totally a way of game for some folks. How to term it in a way that doesn't poison the well? Since "Mother May I" isn't meant to be respectful of the concept.

Well even that is up to interpretation. For some, there is no difference between a GM railroad, and a GM linear adventure. Essentially, there is a tolerance level for any amount of predefined gamemastering. So, how do folks talk about GM authority and the levels they are comfortable with, without going straight to MMI?

Maybe start from a place of being respectful of the other preference? You're certainly not being respectful of differing preferences if you're going straight to an intentional derogatory insult by calling something "mother may I." If referee authority is the concept you're referring to, then talk about that. If you're only comfortable with certain levels of referee authority, talk about that.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Maybe start from a place of being respectful of the other preference? You're certainly not being respectful of differing preferences if you're going straight to an intentional derogatory insult by calling something "mother may I." If referee authority is the concept you're referring to, then talk about that. If you're only comfortable with certain levels of referee authority, talk about that.

I run and play 5e. It is steeped in MMI. That's the fundamental authority structure of the game. How is me noting this, as a player and GM of 5e, and enjoying it for what it is, derogatory to anyone else? I mean, if I'm using it to say your play is bad, sure, but I'm not, and I don't often see it used that way. I see it used by people that very much dislike that style of play, but their use isn't inaccurate.

5e has near total GM authority. Perhaps that's a more acceptable term for you? I mean, what are you looking for in a term?