D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

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DMs introduce fiction. So far I don't know what work was done to cast the Duke's men as the bullies they might be, but it seems not at all outre to suppose they might threaten some villages. That could well legitimately follow (and where it does not, the issue is not MMI, but failure to follow the fiction.)
Again, I think it comes down to scope.

If you run a similar scenario ten times, how many times do the "Duke's Men" (in whatever form - enemies of the PC's anyway) find the PC's and threaten the villagers?

IME, it's largely 100% of the time. And it's 100% of the time for precisely the reason that @overgeeked talks about - the players need to be challenged. At no point can the players ever actually succeed. Just succeed. No succeed at a cost. No yes, but. Just flat out succeed.

That's the problem and that's what's causing problems at tables.
 

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Again, I think it comes down to scope.

If you run a similar scenario ten times, how many times do the "Duke's Men" (in whatever form - enemies of the PC's anyway) find the PC's and threaten the villagers?

IME, it's largely 100% of the time. And it's 100% of the time for precisely the reason that @overgeeked talks about - the players need to be challenged. At no point can the players ever actually succeed. Just succeed. No succeed at a cost. No yes, but. Just flat out succeed.

That's the problem and that's what's causing problems at tables.
And if you propose that sometimes, the players may just succeed, you will be branded as desiring that absolutely all the time, forever, players will instantly succeed at everything they do no matter what.
 

To settle this we may need to come up with a pejorative for those not fans of Mother May I. Perhaps keeping it in the family, I'm thinking Father's Collaborative Story Hour (FCSH). Admittedly it is a little thick on the tongue but humans are pretty adaptive folks.

I have no dog in the fight, I switch between the two styles in a session and I find they both serve me well. I also feel that is very much the spirit of 5e hence the various playstyles included within the DMG.
 

To settle this we may need to come up with a pejorative for those not fans of Mother May I. Perhaps keeping it in the family, I'm thinking Father's Collaborative Story Hour (FCSH). Admittedly it is a little thick on the tongue but humans are pretty adaptive folks.

I have no dog in the fight, I switch between the two styles in a session and I find they both serve me well. I also feel that is very much the spirit of 5e hence the various playstyles included within the DMG.
This I actually agree with to be honest. There are times when it's perfectly fine to just say no to the player. It happens. It's always going to happen. But, conversely, there are times when it's perfectly fine to just say yes to the player. And there needs to be a balance between the two. If, any time the player attempts an action that is not expressly covered by the rules, the results are never as good as if the player had made an attempt at something that was covered by the rules, then there's no balance.

To use the information gathering infiltration scenario - if I could gain more information, more accurately, and at less risk, by simply banging out an Arcane Eye spell, then why would I ever bother trying to scout? Why wouldn't I use the Arcane Eye every single time?

If scouting will never give me a better result than Arcane Eye, or using an invisible Imp familiar, or a thousand other information gathering spells, then there's no point expecting the players to scout.

Replace scout with any other activity that is not rules explicit and you get the reason why MMI starts getting tossed around. If you want the players to not always look to their character sheets to resolve things, then you have to make it actually a viable option to not look at the character sheet. But, not going by the character sheet will almost always lead to a worse result (not even always, just the majority of the time) then there is absolutely no incentive to not use the mechanics as much as possible.
 

As I understand it, MCS basically boils down to the mentality of “my character is the most important thing in this world/game, and therefore everything else should bend to my whims and happen as I want it to” sometimes this goes up to and even includes other player’s characters.

They expect obstacles but they don’t actually expect them to inconvenience them to any significant degree, more that they should be there so they can clear them with ease to show how amazing their character is.

The relevance to this discussion of MMI is the aspect of ‘the things I want should happen, and they should happen specifically in the way that i want them to’ in declaring both their actions and the results they expect to achieve in performing them.

Ok, there are three discrete phenomena I can tease out of the above. Only the 2nd is surely a "player foul" and its the only one that has nothing to do with system/design or "coloring within the lines of the social contract." The first and the third may or may not yield dysfunctional play/social contract violation.

1) Possibly legit player protagonism; " expectation that play will be about the players' evinced interests (via PC build flag or in-play conversation or derived from both of those + the premise/procedures of play) and players will have the ability to affect the gamestate and the trajectory of play toward that end. This mode of play is typically about system/design. There are some systems/designs that engineer this into play and there are others that do not. If you're playing in a system that does not and you have the expectation of this, play is going to be dysfunctional and you're likely violating the social contract (if there is an overt one).

2) Completely dysfunctional narcissism that violates social norms and common courtesy (which might either be an actual affliction or a behavioral platform that this person has developed over time).

3) "Princess Play" whereby the expectation of at least one player is that play will be about Cosplay + Power Fantasy. The game isn't about testing your character's mettle (physical, emotional, ethical - pending game) in a crucible nor about GM's/AP metaplot nor about setting tourism nor about sandbox exploration. The game is about the Cosplay. The game is about the Power Fantasy. Now this mode of play can be entirely dysfunctional or 100 % bang-on with the social contract.
 

No, you’re incorrect. I didn’t want to narrate the outcome. I stated (explicitly) what I wanted to do and what I wanted out of it.

The dissatisfaction comes from not having any additional input on the matter. That no process beyond the GM deciding was involved in the outcome.

We had taken shelter with the farmer, hiding in the loft in his barn, before any of the Duke’s men arrived in the town. There was a local sheriff, but we avoided him and he would not have known us anyway. The bit you added about the Duke’s men threatening the farmer didn’t happen. No further checks were called for, no further information was shared beyond that the Duke’s men arrived in town and went to the Inn.

I would have no problem if there were relevant factors that changed the outcome in some way. If play continued, with more information, more rolls, and so on. But that’s not what happened. Instead, the GM decided that we were discovered somehow (but didn’t specify how), and in the morning the Duke’s men had surrounded the farm and called out for our surrender.

When I talked to the GM afterward, he said he thought it would be cool to have a scene like the end of “Young Guns” where the heroes are trapped in a burning farmhouse surrounded by enemies. He felt that granting us a long rest was sufficient reward for my use of the Folk Hero ability.

Ultimately, he had an idea about the way things should go, and so that’s how they went. His conception of the fiction won out.


I did communicate openly. We discussed as a group what we wanted to do. One player wanted to set an ambush, another wanted to continue on past the town. I suggested a way that could avoid a fight with the Duke’s men, and proposed my Folk Hero ability. Everyone was on board, and the GM seemed impressed and asked me to read the ability.

I seemed to be granted what I wanted, only for it to turn out to be very different than I expected without any further information to indicate that would be the case.

That last bit is key, hence the italics.



Yes. The GM had no ill intent and without violating the procedures of play, greatly reduced the effect of an ability I used. Not through some failure on my part, or a low dice roll, or subsequent fictional factors. But just because he didn’t see the big deal and he had ideas he thought would be cool, so those ideas are what happened.

This is why you go on to talk about “wiggle room” with certain abilities. Interestingly enough, not combat abilities or spells. In those instances, the GM doesn’t have any wiggle room to just have them work in a way he wants. Combat works the way it does, spells work the way they do. The GM has influence on them, but not nearly as much as in social encounters and similar exchanges. This is what I’ve been saying all along.

This is why combat and spell use are far less susceptible to Mother May I. The clear and observable rules. The fact that there’s far less wiggle room for the GM to just maintain his ideas about the fiction.

That's why it has been called illusionism.

The obvious solution is to not decide, in advance of the action declarations and their resolutions, what will happen next.

In the D&D context, the best-developed way of handling this is via skill challenge. When the players at @Hussar's table fail their third check (while doing reconnaissance or whatever) the GM narrates the consequence. That might be an immediate attack; or the GM could say - "OK, you've set up your positions, but after an hour or two of waiting no one's turned up yet - and then suddenly you hear the sound of soldiers approaching from behind you!" It is the mechanical failure that gives the GM licence to narrate without railroading.

So this play excerpt of hawkeyefan’s strikes me as about as quintessential GM Setting Solitaire as I can concieve. You've got a myriad of moving setting parts that were in no way systemitized...the GM in no way divested themselves of the liability of their priors and inability to remotely objectively model the collisions of an enormously complex situation (the capability of the antagonists, the loyalty/fear matrix of the people, the capability of your watch, the distance/people required to canvas/search in order to find the PCs).

So imagine this @hawkeyefan , we're playing a D&D version of Blades and I go "ok, lets find out how well your Folk Hero ability works." Then we go on to put together a dice pool for the situation:

+2d for your Folk Hero ability
+2d for your Faction Status with The Folk
+2d for setting watch and having a Ranger
-1d for the capability of the antagonists
-1d for the fear the antagonists bring to bear upon The Folk
-1d because 8 hours is a fair amount of time

= 3d6

Now we make a throw with the typical spread of results:

6 = you're total hidden away (they don't find you and the people don't snitch)
4-5 = they find you but its after a rest and the watch has spotted them so you're mobilized
1-3 = its fubar (the frightened people snitched and the antagonists found you in such a way that the watch couldn't mobilize).

All table-facing.

My guess is you would feel very differently about the results of play if that 3d6 would have come up a 1-3 in the above scenario @hawkeyefan ?
 
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Ok, there are three discrete phenomena I can tease out of the above. Only the 2nd is surely a "player foul" and its the only one that has nothing to do with system/design or "coloring within the lines of the social contract." The first and the third may or may not yield dysfunctional play/social contract violation.

1) Possibly legit player protagonism; " expectation that play will be about the players' evinced interests (via PC build flag or in-play conversation or derived from both of those + the premise/procedures of play) and players will have the ability to affect the gamestate and the trajectory of play toward that end. This mode of play is typically about system/design. There are some systems/designs that engineer this into play and there are others that do not. If you're playing in a system that does not and you have the expectation of this, play is going to be dysfunctional and you're likely violating the social contract (if there is an overt one).

2) Completely dysfunctional narcissism that violates social norms and common courtesy (which might either be an actual affliction or a behavioral platform that this person has developed over time).

3) "Princess Play" whereby the expectation of at least one player is that play will be about Cosplay + Power Fantasy. The game isn't about testing your character's mettle (physical, emotional, ethical - pending game) in a crucible nor about GM's/AP metaplot nor about setting tourism nor about sandbox exploration. The game is about the Cosplay. The game is about the Power Fantasy. Now this mode of play can be entirely dysfunctional or 100 % bang-on with the social contract.
Im having a little trouble parsing the phrasing of your points, would you agree that they could also be distilled somewhat as the following?
1: my character decisions, both of mechanical build and in-character expressions of interest/intent or action should influence the direction of the GM’s storytelling
2: I am the most important person at the table, and am above the social contact (though not necessarily as a conscious behaviour)
3: I get to play my perfect representation of my character in all their power fantasy glory

I agree in your evaluation of 2, that 3 changes as matter of table-tone appropriateness and 1 is fine in moderation of expectations but where 2 exists both 1 and 3 will often get exacerbated to unacceptable degrees
 

Im having a little trouble parsing the phrasing of your points, would you agree that they could also be distilled somewhat as the following?
1: my character decisions, both of mechanical build and in-character expressions of interest/intent or action should influence the direction of the GM’s storytelling
2: I am the most important person at the table, and am above the social contact (though not necessarily as a conscious behaviour)
3: I get to play my perfect representation of my character in all their power fantasy glory

I agree in your evaluation of 2, that 3 changes as matter of table-tone appropriateness and 1 is fine in moderation of expectations but where 2 exists both 1 and 3 will often get exacerbated to unacceptable degrees

Your 2 and 3 are correct but that isn’t what I’m saying at all in 1. Your 1 does the following:

* It constrains player protagonism exclusively to the domains of in-character decisions/expressions and build decisions and represents them as suggestions to the GM that will hopefully influence..

* …the GM’s unconstrained prerogatives and privileged position (GM Storytelling).


I’m imagining something quite different. GM isn’t in that privileged, unconstrained position. GM’s prerogatives are constrained by system-input (rules/procedures/principles/best practices), by direct/meta player-input (not character…from build to actual overt signaling/conversation), AND by the stuff you mentioned; “character decisions…in-character expressions of interest/intent.” Because that stuff makes up the premise of play (and not GM prerogative to nearly unilaterally decide on the premise and/or veto system/player input at their discretion), the GM is obliged to introduce content that engages with all of that stuff (rather than GM Storytelling prerogatives to do entirely as they will and perceive in-character/build expressions and “system’s say” as “input to be considered for game content but subject to GM veto”).

Take a look at my post directly above and that should give you an idea of what I have in mind. I’m not “telling a story about player’s got caught in the barn by the antagonists” in that instantiation of hawkeyefan’s play excerpt.

In my vision of 1, its the GM who may have the Main Character Syndrome (and that could be meta from "I'm the most important participant at the table and my input is inviolate and prioritized" or it could be that their setting or their antagonists become the protagonist - Main Character - in violation of the social contract...if its not in violation of the social contract then all good).
 
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And if you propose that sometimes, the players may just succeed, you will be branded as desiring that absolutely all the time, forever, players will instantly succeed at everything they do no matter what.
IMO, no one is averse to saying yes sometimes. The confusion lies in there not being any clear cut boubdaties on when a DM can say no lest it be viewed as mother may I. If there are times this is acceptable it feels completely arbitrary to complain about some and not others - at least without establishing the boundaries that explain the difference.
 

Page 42 should have addressed those problems. What concerns did you have that it was insufficient for?


"Famously"? First time I've heard of it. The math needed some tweaking, yes, but not to the level of "we rewrote it from the ground up." Nothing like the things I cited earlier and to which you had replied.

Page 42 actions were less powerful and reliable than powers. So why use them.

We were speaking about math before. Math need "some" rescaling can mean hell of a difference:

DCs were originally so high, that your chances were too low to succeed if you ever had to use a not prime non proficient skill.

One thing that was sadly true was that that the math of 4e was obvviously very rushed out in some important aspects of the game, exactly those that allowed to do noncombat stuff or creative things in combat. Also math of a lot of monsters did not check out in the first MM.

So when they finally had it right, it was sadly just too late to save 4e.
 

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