D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[AlViking]

No edition has a CE write-up that doesn't involve insanity. I've seen no CE examples in media that don't involve being off your rocker in some way.

This is 3e's take on CE.

"Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."

I think AD&D's CN is dysfunctional. It goes past insane. As for 3e's CN, first and foremost they follow their whims. Whims are done without thought. As an individualist first and last, while a CN person doesn't intentionally go after organizations or deprive others of liberty, if the whim strikes, they wouldn't hesitate to deprive someone of their freedom.

If your entire outlook on life involves following whims, you aren't a rational person. The types of insanity that result in CN rather than CE aren't going to be as destructive generally, but they aren't always going to be benign, either.

Was Jack Sparrow insane? He was certainly CN. His choices are driven by freedom, survival, and whimsy rather than ideology or cruelty. Deadpool probably qualifies as does Ash from Army of Darkness. Elektra from the Daredevil and Elektra movie was unpredictable, independent, and morally fluid without being portrayed as insane. Her actions reflect a personal code rather than societal norms.

For that matter I know people in real life I would consider CN - they obey the law not because they respect it, they obey the law because they don't want to end up in jail. Because they aren't insane.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I don't think you can. Cunning is craftiness and deceit, which require thought. That's the opposite of whim. You really can't thoughtfully act on a whim.

a whim is just a spontaneous desire in the moment, an emotional urge isn't all that different, just because these urges weren't planned doesn't means they can't then go about acting upon and following those desires intelligently or with caution.

 

[AlViking]

The definitions of CE don't match up with many monster descriptions. How could gnolls have "friendly relationships" with other humanoids? How can hill giants keep pets and raise children? How can you have a tribe of humanoids, living in difficult terrain, that is incapable of long term planning? CE works fine for demons, undead, and solitary monsters, but dont make sense for anything that acts like a society.

It's only an issue if you take the single phrase "acts on a whim" and base every decision and action upon that. Instead I view it as societies that don't have established laws or hierarchy where, yes, the person in power can act on a whim but can also understand how that's going to affect their hold on power. On the other hand they may decide one day that they're tired of the court bard and decide to fire them from a catapult if they think it won't hurt their standing among their followers.


Chaos may mean doing what you want without regard to law or precedence, it doesn't mean you are ignorant that your actions have consequences. It doesn't mean you can't have bonds, friendships or care about what others think.

 

[Maxperson]

a whim is just a spontaneous desire in the moment, an emotional urge isn't all that different, just because these urges weren't planned doesn't means they can't then go about acting upon and following those desires intelligently or with caution.

It's a spontaneous desire that is acted on. You act on whims. Look at every example of whim the dictionaries use. They involve acting on the whim or being subject to the whims of other people or things.

 

[Maxperson]

Was Jack Sparrow insane?

Yes.

He was certainly CN.

Yes.

His choices are driven by freedom, survival, and whimsy rather than ideology or cruelty.

He was also bat guano crazy.

Deadpool probably qualifies as does Ash from Army of Darkness. Elektra from the Daredevil and Elektra movie was unpredictable, independent, and morally fluid without being portrayed as insane. Her actions reflect a personal code rather than societal norms.

I haven't seen or read every portrayal of Elektra, but the ones I have seen weren't CN.

 

[AlViking]

Yes.

Yes.

He was also bat guano crazy.

I haven't seen or read every portrayal of Elektra, but the ones I have seen weren't CN.

Since you're defining anyone that acts in a chaotic manner as insane there's no point in having a discussion.

 

[Maxperson]

Since you're defining anyone that acts in a chaotic manner as insane there's no point in having a discussion.

That's actually the entire point of many discussions. People with different views espousing and defending them.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It's a spontaneous desire that is acted on. You act on whims. Look at every example of whim the dictionaries use. They involve acting on the whim or being subject to the whims of other people or things.

that still doesn't mean a whim has to be acted on unthinkingly.

 

[AlViking]

That's actually the entire point of many discussions. People with different views espousing and defending them.

Right but you aren't willing to discuss what it actually means to be chaotic - it's just automatically insane no matter who it applies to. Is Ash insane? Deadpool? Are all the people who feel like they don't feel like they fit into society, have no respect for laws, authority or established hierarchies and just want to do their own thing but don't break laws because of the consequences insane?

 

[Maxperson]

that still doesn't mean a whim has to be acted on unthinkingly.

It's not acting on a whim if you calculate how to do it. It's having a thought and figuring out how to accomplish it, which is the opposite of acting on a whim(having a sudden thought and immediately acting on it). What you are suggesting is the polar opposite of whimsy.