How do you feel about DMPCs?

[howandwhy99]

I run old school D&D, so a DM playing along with their own PC is more of a sign of a misguided DM than a faux pas.

In the narrative theory camp where "games are exclusively stories" not allowing one player to tell a story from the single character point of view and rather always being every other character is a game defined role for a player. It doesn't matter at all if any player sticks with one character, plays many, or "narrates" anything else in the game.

In old school D&D role playing is performing the pattern of a social role, your class. Players are engaged in a reality puzzle game where their class focuses on a particular game system from which they get XP when they demonstrate mastery of it. High level / high XP denotes high mastery within the class just as someone can improve their play at Chess or Agricola through pattern recognition.

As a DM I'm running the game behind the screen and relaying what happens as time is expended and the players direct the PCs in their actions. Each Player is playing the game separately, but within the same campaign or game instance. (Like a single play of Chess is a game instance).

Now imagine me, the DM, attempting to solve the Rubik's Cube puzzle along with the players. I have to know all the parts. Where they currently stand. Carry out the repercussions of all the actions behind the screen. And know the results none of the players are privy to yet. That they may never be privy to.

Do you understand why D&D players only play one character now throughout the whole course of a game? Why a DM attempting to run a PC alongside the Players' PCs is misunderstanding of the game's design? Why NPCs can be hired, befriended, talked to, fought with or against, and still not be PCs?

 

[Jacob Marley]

OR is the qualification of DMPC = bad, ALWAYS. Meaning you cannot be a good DMPC, it goes contrary to the description of what it is. Like Good Murder. Killing can sometimes be justified but murder is always bad.

I'll quote myself.

DMPC, as a term, is a lot like railroad(ed/ing); it is, by definition, a term for a negative experience.

Alternatively, you could use [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION]'s definition.

A player character which is played by the DM, ie another one of the protagonists, not the supporting cast.

Incidentally, [MENTION=95493]Tovec[/MENTION], none of the examples you gave seemed particularly egregious to me. I just prefer to keep the term as a pejorative.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And the definition of a NPC vs. a DMPC is.....? Or in your case, a NPC that is a NPC is....?

What qualifies as a DMPC?

There is no official definition. A DMPC is just a type of NPC (as the DM is not a player)*. An NPC that travels with the party can be considered a DMPC (generally a negative term) but there's no hard-core definition, anymore than there's a hard-core definition for a Mary Sue. An NPC is more likely to be considered a DMPC if they play a lead role instead of fading into the background.

I've had NPCs with the group that have been; excellent duelists, supreme magicksters, excellent rage-barbarians, little crystal globes of light that heal people, regenerative kobold that can't die, not to mention others that are slipping my memory at the moment. Some have been over level, some same level, some below level.

There's too many definitions (and you're not giving enough info, except about the kobold) to say whether those are DMPCs or not, but "excellent" NPCs that accompany PCs sometimes aggravate players. It's probably not a good idea to have NPCs travel with the PCs that are higher-level than them though, especially if it's obvious.

So, in your example, the NPC who is guiding and can shoot = good

Good if the party doesn't already have a dedicated archer. (The players were looking for an archer, suggesting they didn't have one.)

The NPC who can trapsmith = bad? And its bad because the NPC is treading on the rogue's toes? What?

Yes. If you're already got a PC healer, you don't need an NPC healer. If you already have a PC rogue, you don't need an NPC rogue. If you've got a PC bard, you don't need an NPC face. Overlapping is generally bad. It might be okay if you desperately need more than one character in a role (eg a large party that is too much for a single healing PC to handle).

Of course, simply asking the players if they need another "X" is a good way to avoid this problem. You might think they don't want another healer when they do, or you might think they want another healer when they don't.

One NPC I introduced was a kobold (part of the list above) that was trapped in a gelatinous cube. As I recall he had been given regenerative powers somehow (it has been a while and I forget) and was being fed to the cube in order to increase its size. The party eventually killed the cube, freed the kobold and then insisted he come with them.
Later they tried throwing him down hallways they thought were trapped, because the kobold was immortal and could not die from the traps effects. So, at this time he became "the party's primary tactic." Is that what qualifies him to be a DMPC? Not anything I would actually do, just physically being tossed down the hall? He could not talk (sit mute in a bag of holding until needed) and he's still an DMPC for that quality?

Whether he's a DMPC or not depends on whether he's taking a lead role. In this case, he's not, unless he's telling PCs to throw him down hallways.

This is a kind of NPC to avoid. Not that it's your fault, as you didn't seem to expect PCs to use him as an "easy mode" trap detector. I went through a GURPS Traveller (of all things!) adventure where we encountered a colony of sapient (Int 7 or 8-equivalent) anthropomorphic penguins that can turn invisible (no, that's not a typo) and unfortunately most of the PCs tried to use them as scouts. (Between lack of Intelligence and having little familiarity with technology, they made poor scouts. One mistook a cleaning robot as a combat robot!) Making matters worse, most of the PCs were cowardly, so they were really insistent on using an invisible scout. They ignored me when I said stupid scouts were... stupid ... until the cleaning "deadly" robot incident.

Right, but being obnoxious isn't the defining quality of a DMPC. It is a defining quality of poor DMing skills, or of poor NPCs in general but it fails to describe why a DMPC might be suck. If that casserole is on fire, I don't blame the casserole (the cheese and mac) I blame the oven for setting it on fire - a different issue entirely.

A DMPC is easy to mess up. That's why some people avoid them. Does this mean that DMPCs are automatically bad? No. But they're easy to mess up. If I were to use myself as an example, I wouldn't mind painting my bedroom walls (easy to do, hard to mess up) but I wouldn't try to write a business budget (hard to do without proper training, easy to mess up).

Most people overestimate their own skills. DMs do this too.

*Unless you've got rotating DMs in the same campaign. Is that common? People rarely disdain these PC/NPC "hybrids".

 

[Celebrim]

And the definition of a NPC vs. a DMPC is.....?

If it is a NPC and it outshines the PCs in the performance of their heroism, it's a DMPC.

I've had NPCs with the group that have been; excellent duelists, supreme magicksters, excellent rage-barbarians, little crystal globes of light that heal people, regenerative kobold that can't die, not to mention others that are slipping my memory at the moment. Some have been over level, some same level, some below level.

I'm skeptical. If the PC's are accompanied by a wizard over their level for any length of time, and its not the villain, is a DMPC. Gandalf can come along once and a while, but Gandalf has to leave or the PC's never become the focus of the story.

Now, if the PC's are 9th level and are accompanied by a 3rd level wizard bumbling apprentice who is occasionally useful with detect magic and light spells and helps guard camp/the PC's house while the PC's are away, that's an NPC.

One NPC I introduced was a kobold (part of the list above) that was trapped in a gelatinous cube. As I recall he had been given regenerative powers somehow (it has been a while and I forget) and was being fed to the cube in order to increase its size. The party eventually killed the cube, freed the kobold and then insisted he come with them.
Later they tried throwing him down hallways they thought were trapped, because the kobold was immortal and could not die from the traps effects. So, at this time he became "the party's primary tactic."

That's not even an NPC. That's a magic item with legs. I can't imagine any NPC putting up with that behavior, and honestly, it's also sadistic and evil by the sound of it.

He could not talk (sit mute in a bag of holding until needed) and he's still an DMPC for that quality?

Again, twisted, sadistic, and evil. This is an NPC whose characterization has been reduced to being a useful item, not a thinking and feeling being with emotions as real and deep as the players.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

DMPCs can burn in the fires of hell.

Want to be a player, drive the plot and be the center of attention? Get on the other side of the screen. Want to contribute to the party by providing a key capability they don't have? That's what limited-use NPCs are for. Otherwise, you're insulting the players with your MarySue-dom.

(I will give groups that consist of a DM and one player a bye, just 'cause what other choices do you have?)

 

[Halivar]

That's not even an NPC. That's a magic item with legs. I can't imagine any NPC putting up with that behavior, and honestly, it's also sadistic and evil by the sound of it.

Again, twisted, sadistic, and evil. This is an NPC whose characterization has been reduced to being a useful item, not a thinking and feeling being with emotions as real and deep as the players.

LOL this party is lucky I'm not their DM. Think of the story possibilities. What kind of pact would such a kobold form with the greater gods of the lower plains for just a small chance at righteous retribution at the group?

 

[Halivar]

(I will give groups that consist of a DM and one player a bye, just 'cause what other choices do you have?)

Even in that case, I provided a suite of NPC's (NOT made like PC's, with a limited set of abilities) under the player's control and tuned the encounters to accomodate.

 

[Lanefan]

One thing that seems to colour (badly) the view of party-member NPCs is the assumption that as an extension of the DM's ego they will always do the right thing and-or always outshine the PCs.

This is not always a valid assumption. The trick is to have the NPC come up with bad ideas or plans or tactics just as often as good ones, based on what its personality/intelligence/wisdom would imply; and leave it up to the PCs whether they listen to the NPC or ignore it. In combat, you as DM can always "underplay" the NPC and have it make sometimes-suboptimal choices; or just let the players run it. I always get the players to do the dice rolling for the NPCs, however - I've usually got enough to worry about running the enemies.

Lan-"and sometimes the party won't let an NPC leave even if it wants to"-efan

 

[Minigiant]

DMPCs are not automatically bad.

The problem is most DMs do it wrong.
They forget they are supposed to playing like a player controlling a PC with no DM knowledge or favoritism.

The DMPC should neither take the lead nor sit in the back. The DMPC should be a supporting cast member.
The key is to have the DMPC act as if the DM were as blind as a player. Maybe even worse. This way the DMPC never takes the lead for the party but doesn't feel like a pet or henchman bringing the DM no fun.

• They could have poor loyalties. The DMPC should trust the trecherous noble sending the party on a suicide mission. Not blindly but with the same amount of trust a player might.
• They can have bad ideas and well as good ones. When the players no longer think the DM is cheating or leading them, they'll treat the DMPC like a normal one.
• The DMPC could be wacky or have quirks. This a kind of cheat. Having the DMPC have blatant flaws or quirks to edge off the stench of railroading. The players will have their PCs wrench leadership from the DMPC so fast.

DMPCs should be like the drummer or keyboardist.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

One thing that seems to colour (badly) the view of party-member NPCs is the assumption that as an extension of the DM's ego they will always do the right thing and-or always outshine the PCs.

This is not always a valid assumption. The trick is to have the NPC come up with bad ideas or plans or tactics just as often as good ones, based on what its personality/intelligence/wisdom would imply; and leave it up to the PCs whether they listen to the NPC or ignore it. In combat, you as DM can always "underplay" the NPC and have it make sometimes-suboptimal choices; or just let the players run it. I always get the players to do the dice rolling for the NPCs, however - I've usually got enough to worry about running the enemies.

Lan-"and sometimes the party won't let an NPC leave even if it wants to"-efan

I often do this. In one game, the party had a lot of trouble deciding what to do, so I temporarily inserted an NPC who offered advice and direction... Unfortunately for the party, this NPC's advice and direction pretty much always led to the worst possible outcome for the party. They eventually started making decisions on their own.

Another thing that I like to do with NPCs that go along with the party is to get them into situations where they need to be rescued.