D&D General How do you feel about Save or Die?

[Garthanos]

The Herculean alike Fighter or Ullyses Warlord scans the scene after noticing the party is in a broadly bloodied and losing. Notices with his Engineering Skill a flaw in the structure that will do nicely he hurls the hammer just so and gets lucky in the manner high hit point and well levelled characters often do (precision strike maybe) and collapses the roof when the dust settles the Hoard of ravenous berserker trolls that was over running them are cut off from the party and muttering something in a strange tongue about their lunch committing suicide. A little later - Hey rogue you distract them your way this ones mine.

 

[Garthanos]

Unless I've taken death off the table for the adventure or campaign, I ask players to create backup characters that can be tapped in in the event of their character's death. I want the player back in the game as soon as possible. I usually see at least 2 deaths per campaign.

Your definitely not killer bob.

 

[CleverNickName]

And have you been the sole survivor of a TPK for that reason?

Yep, once. But of course that just incensed everyone even more. "We totally could have taken him out if you hadn't abandoned us to die!" and et cetera. That was a bad night.

And, y'know, did you bring a ring of spell storing for everyone?

The ring is just one of a myriad of magic items we have been given by our ever-patient DM. But if it doesn't boost DPR or AC, chances are it will be sold as "junk" at the first opportunity. grumble grumble

Sure, and they're probably not any of them slower than the PCs, and aren't trying to carry away fallen comrades, either?

Each scenario and situation is different, which is why it's important to plan these things. Or at least, it should be. There are character builds, spells and magic items that boost movement rate and increase carrying capacity. There are items that can be used to slow or confuse pursuers. There are tactical options, skill challenges, etc. that can be used to distract, delay, or de-escalate. The options are there, and they are largely ignored by the players (and the DM). I don't think the game is the problem.

 

[CleverNickName]

On a more serious note, I have difficulty setting up encounters where people should run away and broadcasting that it's an option. I mean, it's great that the monk and the wizard can get away but what about Tanky the dwarf?

But I think this is probably a different thread because I'd like to hear what other people do.

Agree, I'm sorry I hijacked the thread with my ranting about last night's gaming session. It started out relevant, I promise: the party was fighting a BBEG necromancer (who was deaf) and his banshee companion, and it went about as well as you can expect given the subject of this thread.

Back to the topic at hand.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The Herculean alike Fighter or Ullyses Warlord scans the scene after noticing the party is in a broadly bloodied and losing. Notices with his Engineering Skill a flaw in the structure that will do nicely he hurls the hammer just so and gets lucky in the manner high hit point and well levelled characters often do and collapses the roof when the dust settles the Hoard of ravenous berserker trolls that was over running them are cut off from the party

Yeah, that'll never happen. You've gotta 'plan for it,' which means loading up on the right spells/items...

and muttering something in a strange tongue about their lunch committing suicide.

"...I'm not hungry enough to dig up the bodies, maybe later... do we have any halfling left from yesterday? We have some troglodyte... hasn't that gone bad yet? ...no, if it does, it'll start to smell good..."

Each scenario and situation is different, which is why it's important to plan these things. Or at least, it should be. There are character builds, spells and magic items that boost movement rate and increase carrying capacity. There are items that can be used to slow or confuse pursuers. There are tactical options, skill challenges, etc. that can be used to distract, delay, or de-escalate.

That's getting into another thing that it seems hard to get D&D characters to do: coordinate. I mean, focus-fire is just within most adventuring cat-herds' tolerance, but coordinating builds?

The options are there, and they are largely ignored by the players (and the DM). I don't think the game is the problem.

Oh, if there's a problem with the game, the game's likely part of the problem. It might not always be the whole story, but it's probably in there somewhere.

For instance, it seems plausible that before they get sophisticated enough to do the kind of magic-item-allocation planning you're talking about, let alone build coordination, a group could have probably had at least one TPK where they tried to get away and couldn't, because the monsters were just faster than them, or they didn't leave the slowest PC behind (or they did, and subsequently TPKd for want of healing, because he was the cleric), and also experiences where they thought they were all going to die, but, thanks to lack of death spiral mechanics* (and maybe the DM fudging some die rolls or hp totals behind the screen), pulled through afterall.

In other words, not running a way is something they learned from how the game played. So, even, now, in 5e, when they have a pursuit sub-system tucked away in the DMG, they're not likely to give you reason to look it up.









* of course, death spiral mechanics will also hurt you when trying to run away, so no help there, either.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, that'll never happen. You've gotta 'plan for it,' which means loading up on the right spells/items...

It can be planned for too... but then you have to do a skill challenge to get to your Engineers escape point. Or is it the Dump Stat Smart Fighters escape point.

 

[Garthanos]

In other words, not running a way is something they learned from how the game played. So, even, now, in 5e, when they have a pursuit sub-system tucked away in the DMG, they're not likely to give you reason to look it up.

I keep arguing player side mechanics for this stuff!

 

[Tony Vargas]

I keep arguing player side mechanics for this stuff!

Another option, as an Empowered 5e DM, is to establish early on, before the group's learned otherwise, that, yes, running away when overmatched can work, and not just for the other side.

 

[GrahamWills]

I have been thinking about ways to make escape a more obvious "game supported" option [to retreat]... including standard bluff options to distract the enemy and prevent opportunity attacks and give pcs a head start.

I'd suggest just using the standard methods from 13th Age, Fate, or some other modern games: If the players agree, they can immediately concede the encounter and retreat to a safe place, but they will suffer a campaign loss. The "campaign loss" term essentially means that there will be in-game consequences for the loss.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

For most PCs, retreat and surrender are four-letter words in D&D. Victory or death and that's it.

But back to the subject of Save or Die rolls, it's important to remember that in the old days, character creation was simpler and in our group (and I suspect lots of other tables were similar) we all had a bunch of characters we were leveling up. If one bit the dust, there was another ready to play. Not just a sheet of paper, but a character that had been through adventures, acquired magic items, and that you had an attachment to already.

These days, most of us don't have the time for that. The loss of a character is a significant investment. I don't get to play as often as I like, so that were my one PC to get killed off, that's almost six years of play right there. If my character is going to die, I'd rather it be something epic, rather than a gotcha trap with a save or die check.

No matter how much I telegraph the danger to them, no matter how much foreshadowing I use, no matter how many hints I drop, they refuse to retreat.