D&D General How do you feel about Save or Die?

[Garthanos]

I'd suggest just using the standard methods from 13th Age, Fate, or some other modern games: If the players agree, they can immediately concede the encounter and retreat to a safe place, but they will suffer a campaign loss. The "campaign loss" term essentially means that there will be in-game consequences for the loss.

Certainly an option we can then negotiate the loss and flavor of the action at that point. Customize it to the situation. That does remind me to look at 13A again. I didnt like a couple of things that seemed to pull tactics from the players hands surprise you just did this because the roll is even arent you lucky? Or things that had more than one designer with differing intent on a certain resource fundamental to how a variety of things functioned.

 

[Lanefan]

On a more serious note, I have difficulty setting up encounters where people should run away and broadcasting that it's an option.

Just set up the encounter, provide a getaway route, and stop there.

It's on the players/PCs to figure out that retreat is a viable - and sometimes the best - option. If they don't, or refuse to, then let the clear-conscience slaughter commence.

More seriously, while individual characters die all the time I'm often truly amazed at just how resilient parties-as-a-whole can be - someone always has a "getaway car", or finds a way to survive, or (and these are always the best) finishes off the opponent when everyone else is down and out.

I mean, it's great that the monk and the wizard can get away but what about Tanky the dwarf?

Maybe Tanky dies this time. Makes up for last time when that massive fireball killed the wizard but Tanky was tank enough to survive....

Either way, the party - and thus the campaign - keeps going.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Not really, no. Retreat is actually quite easy, if you prepare for it. The trouble is that nobody thinks they need to.

I play a hexblade in one gaming group, and I always make sure I have expeditious retreat in my ring of spell storing just in case I have to bug out.

That's great for you, but I'm not sure how it could be extended to the rest of the party. It also requires you to have a specific magic item in order for the strategy to be viable, which isn't something that anyone else can realistically plan around.

Because in the absence of some sort of ace in the hole, running away becomes mathematically impossible; and no matter how small your chance of success may be, spending a turn trying (and failing) to run away will always reduce that chance.

 

[uzirath]

I'd suggest just using the standard methods from 13th Age, Fate, or some other modern games: If the players agree, they can immediately concede the encounter and retreat to a safe place, but they will suffer a campaign loss. The "campaign loss" term essentially means that there will be in-game consequences for the loss.

This could be combined with some of the ideas in the Montages in RPGs discussion. The players could narrate the escape, possibly opening up options for the campaign loss:

Freya, howling in frustration, smashes the jeweled pommel of Grimfrost into the stone floor. To her shock, the stone and sword shatter, creating a towering wall of ice that immediately begins melting in the sulfurous heat of the cavern. Her companions drag her, stunned, back to the stairs...

 

[Oofta]

Just set up the encounter, provide a getaway route, and stop there.

It's on the players/PCs to figure out that retreat is a viable - and sometimes the best - option. If they don't, or refuse to, then let the clear-conscience slaughter commence.

More seriously, while individual characters die all the time I'm often truly amazed at just how resilient parties-as-a-whole can be - someone always has a "getaway car", or finds a way to survive, or (and these are always the best) finishes off the opponent when everyone else is down and out.

Maybe Tanky dies this time. Makes up for last time when that massive fireball killed the wizard but Tanky was tank enough to survive....

Either way, the party - and thus the campaign - keeps going.

Well, telling the party to never play a dwarf or someone who doesn't have exceptional speed is not really an option for me. While I'm okay with PC deaths, I'm not okay with telling people what archetypes they can and cannot play.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, telling the party to never play a dwarf or someone who doesn't have exceptional speed is not really an option for me. While I'm okay with PC deaths, I'm not okay with telling people what archetypes they can and cannot play.

Neither am I.

What I'm trying to point out is that many archetypes have perfectly reasonable and (I hope!) obvious built-in weaknesses - e.g. wizards are generally fragile, tanks are generally slow, that sort of thing - and every now and then that weakness might rear up and bite 'em: the big AoE spell one-shots the spindly wizard, the slow tank gets left behind to die, etc.

 

[Oofta]

Neither am I.

What I'm trying to point out is that many archetypes have perfectly reasonable and (I hope!) obvious built-in weaknesses - e.g. wizards are generally fragile, tanks are generally slow, that sort of thing - and every now and then that weakness might rear up and bite 'em: the big AoE spell one-shots the spindly wizard, the slow tank gets left behind to die, etc.

Right. But the tank left behind to die means that the tank always dies. But the party needs a tank so ... someone has to volunteer to run the suicide PC.

If you set up situations where running away without blocking/slowing the chase is a thing.

 

[Lanefan]

Right. But the tank left behind to die means that the tank always dies. But the party needs a tank so ... someone has to volunteer to run the suicide PC.

If you set up situations where running away without blocking/slowing the chase is a thing

Or...something has to change in the party's approach.

The obvious change is to not take on things you can't handle, if you've any choice. Pre-scout if you can.

If you've no choice, make sure the slowpoke(s) have some sort of (usually magical) getaway car - device or potion of speed, or flight, or dimension door/teleport, or invisibility, or that someone is simply strong enough to pick up the tank and run. Or that someone in the party has the means to generate a wall or blockage, or an illusion of same, to cut off pursuit.

Etc.

 

[iserith]

Or...something has to change in the party's approach.

The obvious change is to not take on things you can't handle, if you've any choice. Pre-scout if you can.

If you've no choice, make sure the slowpoke(s) have some sort of (usually magical) getaway car - device or potion of speed, or flight, or dimension door/teleport, or invisibility, or that someone is simply strong enough to pick up the tank and run. Or that someone in the party has the means to generate a wall or blockage, or an illusion of same, to cut off pursuit.

Etc.

Yep. Play to your strengths as a character and a party and do your best to mitigate your weaknesses. It's like parties without a tank or a healer who play as if they have those characters in the party. That's very risky. Those players are well-advised to adjust their approach or their goals accordingly.

 

[Weiley31]

An example of save or die done poorly:
DM: “As you descend the stairs, waiting for you at the bottom is a woman with a wretched face and snakes for hair. Make a Con save!”
PLAYER: “Wait, I close my eyes!”
DM: “Too late, by the time you’ve seen her you have to save.”
PLAYER: “Well I already had them closed!”
DM:“While you were on the stairs? Your character would have no way of knowing there was a Medusa at the bottom. Besides, you never said you had them closed.”
PLAYER: “I hate this campaign.”

An example of save or die done well:
DM: “As you traverse deeper and deeper into the dungeon, you pass statue after statue, each of people in adventuring gear much like your own, each frozen with a look of surprise on its face. Not a one has their weapons drawn.”
PLAYER: “Sounds like the Medusa who lairs here petrified them in a single glance. Good thing the villagers warned us she’d be here. I’m still navigating with that mirror I bought, by the way!”

Medusa: And then wouldn't ya know it, the flipping DM drops a BLOODY MIRROR equiped adventurer at the start of the encounter. I tried to roll a save but he blooming goes "but how did you know he had a mirror, you were too busy expecting another statue!!"

This campaign sucks.