D&D General How do you feel about Save or Die?

[Gradine]

Or put another way: if I went into a game with the understanding that the outcome of a single die roll could kill my character, I would become a lot less personally invested in that character than I would normally be inclined to be.

 

[iserith]

How about that power word kill, right fellahs?

 

[Gradine]

Or put another another way: if the most commonly understood best practice of a mechanic is to telegraph it so thoroughly that your players are motivated to do whatever they can to avoid the mechanic altogether, is that really the sign of a good mechanic?

See also: encumbrance rules and bags of holding

 

[Monayuris]

I don't mind them. Its just a game. If I die from a Save or Die, I'll try to learn from it next time.

The thing to keep in mind is that saving throws don’t happen in a vacuum. A player decision leads to the situation the causes the saving throw.

I just don’t see the issue with save or die or death at zero. As a player I prefer these to the 5E versions.

If I die, I can roll up a new character and get back in the game. But with the 5E rules, I have to sit here and roll death saves every round and wait to get back into the game. It’s a massive waste of time to be doing nothing but roll a d20 every round.

I’d rather have my character die instantly at 0 hp and roll a new one.

It’s absolutely boring to roll death saves.

 

[iserith]

Or put another another way: if the most commonly understood best practice of a mechanic is to telegraph it so thoroughly that your players are motivated to do whatever they can to avoid the mechanic altogether, is that really the sign of a good mechanic?

See also: encumbrance rules and bags of holding

Telegraphing is in my view a technique that lends itself to both fair gameplay and good storytelling. It is the foreshadowing of the threat that builds the tension and sets the stage for players to avoid, mitigate, or otherwise deal with said threat in the form of a fair challenge. The mechanic just represents the potential severity of the threat. Now it's on the players to decide what to do in the face of that.

Encumbrance rules, in some adventures and campaigns, make it an important decision about what to carry into and out of dangerous places because space is limited. It is a logistical problem for the players to solve with built-in trade-offs. I would not put bags of holding in such adventures or campaigns, just like I wouldn't put encumbrance rules in an event-based campaign that didn't focus on such decisions.

 

[iserith]

The thing to keep in mind is that saving throws don’t happen in a vacuum. A player decision leads to the situation the causes the saving throw.

This is true. Unless the players are being dragged along from situation to situation by the DM, the players decided to put their characters in a situation where a die roll could say they die. I would hope that the DM telegraphed the possibility to some reasonable standard prior to that point so that the players could make some informed decisions which is fundamental for a fair challenge in my view.

 

[Monayuris]

This is true. Unless the players are being dragged along from situation to situation by the DM, the players decided to put their characters in a situation where a die roll could say they die. I would hope that the DM telegraphed the possibility to some reasonable standard prior to that point so that the players could make some informed decisions which is fundamental for a fair challenge in my view.

Yes.
But a half way decent DM isn’t doing that.

I mean the choices of the players have to lead to appropriate consequences. These consequences need to be explained clearly. If that is done successfully, anything goes.

Maybe save or die requires a more skilled DM to implement. That is a good thing as it drives the development of better DMs.

 

[Garthanos]

Walked in the room and a sentient stalactite killed the character dead away (always forget what it was called) it wasn't even save or die but it was due to extreme character fragility .... then I found out years later Gygax and Arneson both skipped the lowest levels smdh.

 

[Laurefindel]

I’m not a fan of sudden “roll bad and you’re dead”. Mind you, I’m not a fan of “roll well and what should have killed you has no effect whatsoever”; I dislike most all or nothing effects.

I prefer mechanics where an effect causes X; saves make it progressively worse.

 

[Monayuris]

Yes.
But a half way decent DM isn’t doing that.

I mean the choices of the players have to lead to appropriate consequences. These consequences need to be explained clearly. If that is done successfully, anything goes.

Maybe save or die requires a more skilled DM to implement. That is a good thing as it drives the development of better DMs.

A corollary to this is as a player, you got be alright with what happens in the game. You got to trust the DM. There are jerk DMs but they aren’t the norm:

When I run with save or die games:... I make it clear. I expect that the people playing with me understands that it is in effect.

As a player... I’m ok with it.. it’s just a game.!