D&D 5E How do you handle the issue of initiative versus tactical enemy responses?

If you aren't playing your NPCs to their intelligence, then you're doing your players a disservice.

That being said, it's not always obvious who they should target first. The one with the holy symbol painted on their shield is probably tough enough that they won't go down in the first round. If everyone tries to jump on the one wearing robes, then the one with the holy symbol will just bring them back up. There's also the issue of positioning, where not everybody can get at their ideal targets without eating an opportunity attack, which may or may not be worth it depending on various factors.

Also, if you're using more than three intelligent enemies in a fight, it's kind of cheating to let them all act on the same initiative. The ability to let everyone act sequentially without giving the PCs a chance to respond is a powerful ability which can make all the difference in an encounter.
 

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discosoc

First Post
Sounds like the OP is treating this as a tactical minis game like warhammer, and not a roleplaying game. You can get all tactical on your players just fine; the key is to understand if your the bad guys are capable of knowing what you (the DM) knows.

Bandits ambush your players. Odds are they won't know who the healer is right off the bat, but even if they *did* know (previous knowledge or maybe the healer has some "healing uniform" or something to tip it off), people are generally not going to target that person in the first place. It's like, if you have a robed cleric and a huge guy in platemail carrying a 2-handed sword right next to him, sane people won't just ignore the guy most likely to kill him simply because going after the healer is a "better tactic." Maybe a ranged bandit takes a shot at him, but the front line guys are going to focus on the threat.

Here's another real-world example. Not sure how many of you have stumbled across a bear in the wild, but it's scary as hell. Doesn't matter how many times it happens, or what kind of gun you have, the bear is going to freak you out. Even with training and enough exposure, it would be a real psychopath who voluntarily tries to run past that bear to get to the safe shelter (gun or some other better "tactical" choice). Big scary things that are capable of quick acts of powerful violence -- especially those with unknown intentions, or that you just provoked -- are not the kinds of things people just ignore in favor of killing the guy in a dress.

So as a DM, a big part of your job is making sure that you're filtering the actions of your NPC's through whatever makes sense to *them* rather than what makes sense to you.
 

S'mon

Legend
I play the NPCs according to their abilities. Only very well organised NPCs will be better organised than a typical PC group of adventurers. Many will be relatively disaorganised, but not idiotic - ogres will tend to attack the nearest target or the one that hurt them most, hobgoblins will use standard military unit tactics, drow will hit & fade, gnolls use pack tactics and eat the fallen, etc.

The main thing to remember is that NPCs usually have individual minds, they are not a gestalt. If in doubt I use a d6 to decide what each one does.
 

If you aren't playing your NPCs to their intelligence, then you're doing your players a disservice.

Not sure who this is addressed to, but just in case it's a response to the immediately prior post by me:

I use a lot of non-intelligent enemies. "Their intelligence" is fairly low. I play githzerai/githyanki/mind flayers/etc. much closer to my own actual tactical ability, with allowances for the fact that on the one hand I'm not a trained warrior, and on the other hand, they don't get to think in bullet time like I do. (I can spend two minutes of real time thinking about the optimal response to an event, and I automatically notice everything that happens in a combat; they have to decide in a fraction of a second, while keeping track of a hundred things going on around them.)

But I use a lot of non-intelligent enemies because I don't like feeling like an adversarial DM who's beating up on the players. My goal is to give my friends a fun time while having a fun time myself; not to boost my own ego by "winning" every confrontation. It is fun to occasionally TPK a party with a Not-Even-Easy encounter, as long as (1) the danger has been appropriately telegraphed in advance; and (2) it serves the story somehow, e.g. taking out a ~10th level party with a handful of CR 1/4 drow makes the point that "drow are scary and you should be scared of the Underdark". (One of the two PCs made all of his death saves and survived; the other died.)

But for the most part I believe that 5E is best played against monsters, not organized, intelligent, well-trained, militaristic tool-users. Or at any rate, the players tend to avoid conflict with the intelligent militaristic tool-users and look for treasure in dungeons instead, so at least they seem to believe it.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
I don't use initiative.
Everybody declares their actions, and are rolling their dice, and tell me what they are doing. Likewise, I'm telling them what the monsters are doing. It's chaotic, fast, and people are often determining tactics based on what others are saying. If there's a point that we need to determine what happened first, we have an opposed Initiative check. And if people can't figure out what's going on, they might lose their turn that round.

This does sound very cool - I really don't like the "combat swoop" that rolling initiative introduces. Everything slows down as we methodically make our way through each persons turn. This sounds like "narrative combat" and it's something I plan to do when combat ensues with an enemy that is vastly mismatched with the PCs (hasn't come up yet). But the thought of doing it all the time is appealing.

How do you ensure that everyone gets a chance and it just doesn't turn into a free-for-all (and the more hesitant players aren't just rolled over)?
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
This does sound very cool - I really don't like the "combat swoop" that rolling initiative introduces. Everything slows down as we methodically make our way through each persons turn. This sounds like "narrative combat" and it's something I plan to do when combat ensues with an enemy that is vastly mismatched with the PCs (hasn't come up yet). But the thought of doing it all the time is appealing.

How do you ensure that everyone gets a chance and it just doesn't turn into a free-for-all (and the more hesitant players aren't just rolled over)?

We still have rounds, so everybody gets to act each round, it's just that we don't manage all of the actions sequentially with initiative. The way it usually works is that people will just start telling me what they plan to do, if they have questions about what the monsters are doing I'll answer them, and other people will jump in. If I don't hear somebody, I just ask. Tactics get worked out in the process, and they can roll any time they'd like after they've declared their action, and we just resolve them at the end of the round. Some things, like casting spells, take more time than others. This can show up as a modifier to an initiative check if needed, but usually isn't.

The majority of time, when something occurs isn't really relevant. But if you need to know whether the rogue killed the orc before the orc hit the wizard, then you make an opposed initiative check. This is particularly important in our campaign, because you can interrupt spellcasting (a la AD&D), although it doesn't automatically cause failure.

Part of why I love it is that it is so chaotic, as combat should be. I've run it at a table with 12 players, and people figured out pretty quick to speak up for themselves, but I'll ask if somebody doesn't give me an action. It actually forces everybody to pay attention more, if you want to plan for any sort of tactics, since you have to know what each other are doing.

With the 12-player table, one of the long-term players in his first combat said, when I asked him what he was doing, "Nothing. I'm just stunned by this whole experience and gathering my wits in my first combat."

I describe the order of actions based on what I think makes sense. An orc is running 30 feet to close with you and you're firing a crossbow at him? You'll get your shot off, then he attacks. That sort of thing.

We're also shifting back to 1 minute rounds. I think it's absurd that any given combat lasts mere seconds (and the way most people describe them as one swing per roll, in less than a handful of swings). Instead of 300' per round, I've settled more or less on the old standard of 120' per round, but essentially it makes movement irrelevant. If you're in a dungeon it's much more of a question as to what's in your way than whether you can get from here to there. Outside, it makes people think more of real life tactics, like taking cover against ranged weapons. If you're a couple of hundred yards away from those archers, you won't last very long if you just charge straight in.

I originally thought of trying to split it up so that move actions were separate from attack actions, etc. That is, the question would be, "What do you do this segment?" and iterate them from there. But the reality is, what I think really matters in RPG combat are the things that grant advantage/disadvantage. To try an model a real combat, with split-second decisions, etc. is too difficult.

The other approach, which I think flanking is a good example, makes it too board-game like. "My ally is there, against that opponent, so I'm moving my 25 feet to here so I'm on the other side and get an advantage." And the target doesn't see that coming and move? As long as there's someplace to go, he'd do everything he can to keep both of you in front of him (the easiest of which is circling one opponent while keeping the other one beyond him). That's why to surround somebody, you really need 3 people.

The other thing that's cool about it is there is no shift into combat mode. Normally, the call of "roll initiative" immediately shifts everybody into combat mode. It may be that no action has taken place (which is one of the reasons I don't like it), but the DM knows they are about to be attacked. Instead, they get clues, they might be suspicious of the guy that's hanging back, maybe make an Insight check (I do these all the time as passive checks anyway). The guy lunges to attack, how to you react?

In that scenario, I'd roll for surprise. Depending on the actions and what the players said before, they may have advantage on the check. Of course, if they thought it was a different person that was going to attack they might have disadvantage. Once the surprise portion is over (mine is: you have advantage on your initiative check on that turn if needed; you have advantage on the attack; and the target cannot use a reaction against your first turn). After that, it's just combat, and you might need initiative, you might not. Note that surprise is individually, that is, some people can be surprised, and others not. On both sides.

It's very difficult to model that scene with RAW.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Thanks, [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION], that's awesome. I always want to kick combat off when one of the players does something confrontational (or an NPC responds negatively to something the PCs say/do) and rolling initiative often means that the initiating N/PC is not first which makes no sense. So then they come back in later and effectively get two turns. This would eliminate that and make it flow much more naturally.

I'm not sure my DMing chops are up to it. But I'm sorely tempted.... A possibility to fail spectacularly perhaps? ;)
 

darkrose50

First Post
One way to work with this without individual initiative is to use a "back-and-forth" initiative, where you divide the # of monsters by the # of PC's and, after each PC goes, a monster or two goes (or vice-versa if the monsters initiate combat). You don't have to track monster initiative then, but you still break up the monolithic results of focused fire and the like.


This works well in Imperial Assault. Each side gets to choose who activates on their sides turn. Everyone activates once per round. It adds a sense of urgency, as if there are multiple un-activated enemies that are a threat, then the players need to make a choice (defeat does not always mean death, making the players choose who lives and who dies may be a bit much).
 
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darkrose50

First Post
Also, as mentioned above, effective battle tactics need to be taught through training or learned by experience. Even if a monster is clever enough to decide to ambush an opponent, it doesn't necessarily follow that they'll know how to (or be able to) do so in the most effective fashion.

Everyone would rather have the surgeon with average intelligence and 40-years of practice, rather than the smartest guy in the world without training perform a surgery.

I try my best to impart to my children this fact (it is more important to try hard, than be smart) as well as the importance of failing. I have a high IQ, glided through high school on "easy mode", and would have greatly benefited from risks, challenges, and failures.
 
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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Thanks, @Ilbranteloth, that's awesome. I always want to kick combat off when one of the players does something confrontational (or an NPC responds negatively to something the PCs say/do) and rolling initiative often means that the initiating N/PC is not first which makes no sense. So then they come back in later and effectively get two turns. This would eliminate that and make it flow much more naturally.

I'm not sure my DMing chops are up to it. But I'm sorely tempted.... A possibility to fail spectacularly perhaps? ;)

It's not as hard as you might think. Remember that it's still round-based, and it's really up to the players to make sure they get their turns in. You can use some sort of counters if needed to start with to make sure you've gotten to everybody each turn.

It's one of those things that makes more sense when you do it, rather than when you try to explain it.
 

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