D&D 5E (2024) How do you rule using a Hand Crossbow with a nick weapon

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm not sure I understand your question. It's "or". Here's the full text.

"You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make." Doesn't matter how many attacks you can make normally.

I understand it, that you can make 2 attacks, if you can fire it with an action first and then with a bonus action.

If, however, you had a feature that allowed you to make an attack without taking any actions at all (not even a Reaction), then that would circumvent this because it doesn't meet the trigger (it isn't being fired when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction.)

I don't understand your logic here. One attack is never a problem. If you can do two attacks with not an action, then it becomes relevant.

I know of no such feature, so it's not like this is an exploitable loophole. It's just an interesting note that it isn't tied to whether you fire the crossbow--it's tied to the type of action you used in order to fire it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I understand it, that you can make 2 attacks, if you can fire it with an action first and then with a bonus action.

And I understand it to mean you can only fire it one time during the round, regardless of which action you use. If you use an action, that's your one and only use of that hand crossbow during that round. You could not use it a second time in that round, no matter what action (regular, Bonus, or Reaction) you attempt.

Worth noting, way back when, Crawford had previously clarified (in 5.0) that you did in fact need the Crossbow Expert feat in order to fire the same light crossbow once with an action, and then separately later with a Bonus Action. It's not the same edition, so it is possible they changed their minds on this...but it would be unusual for them to suddenly flip to a massively more favorable interpretation. Especially because the wording of the 5.5e "Loading" property is identical in all rule-related aspects, it simply deletes the fluffy lead-in text. It begins (italicized text deleted in 5.5e): "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece..." Everything from "[Y]ou can fire..." onward is identical.

Edit: And, in fact, that tweet answer was actually added to the official Sage Advice compendium. So it doesn't even have the stigma of "Crawford tweets aren't ~~canon~~ official". It really was the official rule back in 5.0.:

Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and​

then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a look​

at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand​

crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action​

to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is​

a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both​

attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand​

crossbow between the two attacks.​

You needed to have Crossbow Expert to even be capable of firing a hand crossbow through two different types of actions. That seems to still be true in 5.5e; none of the relevant wording has changed.

I don't understand your logic here. One attack is never a problem. If you can do two attacks with not an action, then it becomes relevant.

Consider: you take the Attack action. Done. Then, after that, your hypothetical...call it "Quickdraw Artist" feature, which allows you to make a single ranged weapon attack roll at any time once before the end of your turn, if you have at any point during your turn already made a ranged weapon attack. "Quickdraw Artist" explicitly does not require an action, Bonus Action, nor Reaction. It simply happens.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And I understand it to mean you can only fire it one time during the round, regardless of which action you use. If you use an action, that's your one and only use of that hand crossbow during that round. You could not use it a second time in that round, no matter what action (regular, Bonus, or Reaction) you attempt.

Worth noting, way back when, Crawford had previously clarified (in 5.0) that you did in fact need the Crossbow Expert feat in order to fire the same light crossbow once with an action, and then separately later with a Bonus Action. It's not the same edition, so it is possible they changed their minds on this...but it would be unusual for them to suddenly flip to a massively more favorable interpretation. Especially because the wording of the 5.5e "Loading" property is identical in all rule-related aspects, it simply deletes the fluffy lead-in text. It begins (italicized text deleted in 5.5e): "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece..." Everything from "[Y]ou can fire..." onward is identical.

Edit: And, in fact, that tweet answer was actually added to the official Sage Advice compendium. So it doesn't even have the stigma of "Crawford tweets aren't ~~canon~~ official". It really was the official rule back in 5.0.:

Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and​

then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a look​

at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand​

crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action​

to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is​

a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both​

attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand​

crossbow between the two attacks.​

You needed to have Crossbow Expert to even be capable of firing a hand crossbow through two different types of actions. That seems to still be true in 5.5e; none of the relevant wording has changed.


Consider: you take the Attack action. Done. Then, after that, your hypothetical...call it "Quickdraw Artist" feature, which allows you to make a single ranged weapon attack roll at any time once before the end of your turn, if you have at any point during your turn already made a ranged weapon attack. "Quickdraw Artist" explicitly does not require an action, Bonus Action, nor Reaction. It simply happens.

This is why I asked how you understand it. I think the wording is ambiguous and I wanted to follow your reasoning.

And given how bad I generally think the Sage Advice is regarding rules/rulings, I think I need to make my mind up myself how I would rule.

So with your interpretation, a fighter can't even action surge to shoot a crossbow a second time. I don't like that.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is why I asked how you understand it. I think the wording is ambiguous and I wanted to follow your reasoning.

And given how bad I generally think the Sage Advice is regarding rules/rulings, I think I need to make my mind up myself how I would rule.

So with your interpretation, a fighter can't even action surge to shoot a crossbow a second time. I don't like that.

Sure, if you don't like that, that's up to you! But it seems pretty clear to me that that is the RAI.

 

[Plaguescarred]

When a creature takes the Attack Action and attack with a Hand Crossbow, it can now make the extra attack of the Light property with a different Light weapon, as a Bonus Action, or as part of the Attack Action instead if it has Nick Weapon Mastery.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

When a creature takes the Attack Action and attack with a Hand Crossbow, it can now make the extra attack of the Light property with a different Light weapon, as a Bonus Action, or as part of the Attack Action instead if it has Nick Weapon Mastery.

Great answer. Let's be more specific. I'm going to do an analysis on this. As always, the following is my opinion, take it for what you want.

Begin with the action economy- because this will matter. The two actions that matter, for now, are "attack action" (attack), and "bonus action" (bonus).

Absent other modifiers (discussed below) you can draw / stow one (1) weapon (but you can't draw and stow the same weapon) as part of the attack action.

You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.

Hand crossbows are ammunition, light, and loading. The key property is ammunition.

You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged Attack only if you have Ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you Attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of Ammunition. Drawing the Ammunition from a Quiver, case, or other container is part of the Attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended Ammunition by taking a minute to Search the battlefield (except bullets/cells).

I would argue that this language (that "draw" is part of the "Attack") tracks the language of the Thrown property- which also allows you to draw as part of the attack. However, there is a difference- an explicit limitation that "you need a free hand to load" in order to draw as part of the attack action that differentiates Ammunition from Thrown.

Why does all of this matter?

Let's look at the Light property.

When you Attack with two Light weapons equipped, you can make an extra Attack as a Bonus Action with the offhand weapon. You cannot add a positive attribute modifier to an offhand attack's damage roll.

And then the Nick property.

The extra attack from a Light weapon can be made as part of the original Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can only make this extra attack once per turn.

To me, without any other issues, I see a problem in pure RAW as the OP stated that there aren't any other feats, etc. going on.

The hand crossbow is limited by the ammo property, requiring you to have a free hand as part of the attack action. So when you attack (using the light property) .... you don't have two light weapons equipped. You don't get the benefit of the light triggering the nick to cause your bonus action to move to your attack action. And this is specific to the ammunition property requiring the free hand during the attack in order to load (draw) when you attack. While you can equip a light weapon after the hand crossbow attack, you didn't "Attack with two Light weapons equipped ..."

Then there's another issue that I see, but others disagree with. I read the "nick" property as stating that the initial attack must be made by the weapon with the nick property, and the bonus attack (the extract attack) can then be made with a different light weapon that is then moved into the attack action - because it's the attack action with a light weapon during the attack action that triggers nick, moving the bonus action (with the other light weapon) into the attack action.*

So to answer the question- in my opinion, if you ignore further complications (feats), the interplay of weapon properties and the action economy means that using hand crossbows is usually not a great idea.

I will caveat all of this somewhat-
1. The thrown property (which means that a thrown dagger, for example, can be considered "equipped" even when you don't start the attack with it in your hand) would allow you to start the round with the light crossbow, throw a dagger (nick), and shoot the crossbow (since you have a free hand and its light) as an attack. Not sure why you'd want to, but you can.

2. I think the restrictions on weapon juggling and the action economy are neither here, nor there. They prevent the worst abuses if they are followed, but they also don't make a lot of sense in general. I happen to think it's a good idea to follow them, but if your group is into weapon juggling and powergaming, do the things that seems most fun for your group. Personally, if someone had a cool idea for a character that was going "pew pew pew" with two handcrossbows, I'd work with them to make it work and make it fun.



*Weapon properties, cleave, nick, etc., are invoked during the attack action with that weapon. It has to to be used in the attack, which then moves the bonus light weapon attack into the main attack. This usually doesn't make a difference, except the few situations when it does. But it's not the bonus attack that has to be nick- it's the attack.

 

[Charlaquin]

Let's look at the Light property.

When you Attack with two Light weapons equipped, you can make an extra Attack as a Bonus Action with the offhand weapon. You cannot add a positive attribute modifier to an offhand attack's damage roll.

Hold up. Was this errata’d? This is not how I remember this property being worded when the 2024 books initially released. Indeed, this wording would prevent many of the weapon juggling tricks that were hotly discussed at the time of release, such as the much maligned “dual wielding” with one hand while holding a shield in the other technique. I’ve gotta check my hard copy…

EDIT: No, that’s not how it’s worded in the hard copy. It’s also not how it’s worded in the free rules. Can anyone who purchased the digital copy of the 2024 PHB clarify if it has been changed there? Cause this is the wording in the free rules:

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Hold up. Was this errata’d? This is not how I remember this property being worded when the 2024 books initially released. Indeed, this wording would prevent many of the weapon juggling tricks that were hotly discussed at the time of release, such as the much maligned “dual wielding” with one hand while holding a shield in the other technique. I’ve gotta check my hard copy…

EDIT: No, that’s not how it’s worded in the hard copy. It’s also not how it’s worded in the free rules. Can anyone who purchased the digital copy of the 2024 PHB clarify if it has been changed there? Cause this is the wording in the free rules:

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.

You are correct. I am not near my books, so I grabbed a definition for light off the web. Apologies- you provided the correct one. I originally had a longer initial introduction (including utilize action) from memory, but changed it when I saw the (wrong) text I pulled.

So I will go back and saw that with a handcrossbow in one hand, you can do the following:
Fire the handcrossbow (free hand, draw is part of the attack action and does not count as a draw/stow if you have a free hand)
Draw a melee light weapon and equip it as the free equip as part of the action
Attack with the drawn light weapon as a bonus action.

However, you cannot use the nick property of the second equipped melee weapon to retcon the bonus action into the attack action per RAW. I do think that RAW, you can do it if the weapon is both nick and thrown (throwing dagger) as the action would be as follows:

Attack action-
(Begins with handcrossbow equipped)
-Draws and throws dagger (light, nick)
(You start with a hand free, and now have a hand free)
The handcrossbow is a light weapon, allowing you to use it on your bonus action. But because you attacked with a nick weapon, you can move the handcrossbow's attack to your attack action.

Melee version (weapon juggling)
(Begin with scimitar and handcrossbow)
-Attacks with scimitar (nick)
-Free unequip (stow scimitar)
-Hand is free. Now, bonus action would be handcrossbow, so you can move it to attack action.

The issue with the melee attacks is that you only get the one "free" equip OR unequip (which includes dropping). Next round, you're starting with just the handcrossbow. So it you use the free equip to draw the scimitar, you won't have a hand free.

I get that most of this will just get ignored by many people- the majority of players don't do any weapon juggling, and the rules are difficult to parse if you are into weapon juggling (specific beats general, so does a free object interaction mean you get an additional weapon interaction, or is that separate from the specific weapon equip/unequip/draw rules), so it's usually only going to come up in cases where people are trying to do very specific weapon mastery combinations- and then there's feats, like dual wielder, that will have an impact.*


*I would argue that one reason to really keep track of this stuff is because if you're into weapon juggling, that feat suddenly becomes a lot more important.

 

[Charlaquin]

You are correct. I am not near my books, so I grabbed a definition for light off the web. Apologies- you provided the correct one. I originally had a longer initial introduction (including utilize action) from memory, but changed it when I saw the (wrong) text I pulled.

So I will go back and saw that with a handcrossbow in one hand, you can do the following:
Fire the handcrossbow (free hand, draw is part of the attack action and does not count as a draw/stow if you have a free hand)
Draw a melee light weapon and equip it as the free equip as part of the action
Attack with the drawn light weapon as a bonus action.

However, you cannot use the nick property of the second equipped melee weapon to retcon the bonus action into the attack action per RAW. I do think that RAW, you can do it if the weapon is both nick and thrown (throwing dagger) as the action would be as follows:

Attack action-
(Begins with handcrossbow equipped)
-Draws and throws dagger (light, nick)
(You start with a hand free, and now have a hand free)
The handcrossbow is a light weapon, allowing you to use it on your bonus action. But because you attacked with a nick weapon, you can move the handcrossbow's attack to your attack action.

Melee version (weapon juggling)
(Begin with scimitar and handcrossbow)
-Attacks with scimitar (nick)
-Free unequip (stow scimitar)
-Hand is free. Now, bonus action would be handcrossbow, so you can move it to attack action.

The issue with the melee attacks is that you only get the one "free" equip OR unequip (which includes dropping). Next round, you're starting with just the handcrossbow. So it you use the free equip to draw the scimitar, you won't have a hand free.

I get that most of this will just get ignored by many people- the majority of players don't do any weapon juggling, and the rules are difficult to parse if you are into weapon juggling (specific beats general, so does a free object interaction mean you get an additional weapon interaction, or is that separate from the specific weapon equip/unequip/draw rules), so it's usually only going to come up in cases where people are trying to do very specific weapon mastery combinations- and then there's feats, like dual wielder, that will have an impact.*


*I would argue that one reason to really keep track of this stuff is because if you're into weapon juggling, that feat suddenly becomes a lot more important.

It’s unclear to me if the Nick property cares whether the extra attack with the Light property is made with the Nick weapon or the other light weapon. It only says

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nothing about which of those attacks needs to be made with the Nick weapon, so I assume either of them can be.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It’s unclear to me if the Nick property cares whether the extra attack with the Light property is made with the Nick weapon or the other light weapon. It only says

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nothing about which of those attacks needs to be made with the Nick weapon.

That's why this is another issue I see, but that others disagree with. To me, this is pretty clear in terms of the rules, but AFAIK there isn't a specific way to look at it. It has to do with the action economy. Let me start by making an analogy-

5e24 is specific about the action economy. For example, there is a difference between an "Attack Action" and a "Spell Attack." So if you take an attack action, you get the equip/unequip. If you take the spell attack, you don't. This normally doesn't matter, but if you use a "spell attack" that happens to involve a weapon (true strike) ... then it can matter a great deal. See what I mean?

What is a bonus action?

A Bonus Action is a special action that you can take on the same turn that you take an action. You can't take more than one Bonus Action on a turn, and you have a Bonus Action to take only if a rule explicitly says so. ... You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action's timing is specific.

Actions-
... You can take only one action at a time.

Attack [Action]-
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.

(Rules Glossary, and I confirmed it before typing- from Bonus Action, Attack Action, and Actions)


Let's move away from handcrossbows to a Scimitar (light, nick) and Shortsword (light, vex).

Assume level one, equipped with both, nothing else going on.

Krom takes the attack action. Since he is using a light weapon, he can take a bonus attack with a light weapon. But bonus actions require a specified trigger. So which weapon is the attack with the light weapon, and which weapon is the bonus attack occurring with? Krom has two choices:

A. Attack with Scimitar (nick), bonus attack with shortsword (vex).
B. Attack with Shortsword (vex), bonus attack with scimitar (nick).

Now, Nick-
When you make the extra attack* of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

So in A, he is making the Attack Action with a weapon that has Nick, so when Krom "make{s} the extra attack of the Light property, {Krom} can make is as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action."

But for B? The Attack Action doesn't have nick. The Bonus Action was triggered by the light property, and it is still a bonus action. The extra attack was not triggered by the nick weapon... but by the second weapon being light, so what happens is that you end up with just the attack action and the bonus action, but you can't retcon the bonus action back into the attack action.

Notice that for 95% of use cases it doesn't matter; just remember that the "first attack" is with the nick weapon. But it does matter in terms of restricting a few cases.

Anyway, that is how I read it.