D&D 5E (2024) How do you rule using a Hand Crossbow with a nick weapon

[Charlaquin]

That's why this is another issue I see, but that others disagree with. To me, this is pretty clear in terms of the rules, but AFAIK there isn't a specific way to look at it. It has to do with the action economy. Let me start by making an analogy-

5e24 is specific about the action economy. For example, there is a difference between an "Attack Action" and a "Spell Attack." So if you take an attack action, you get the equip/unequip. If you take the spell attack, you don't. This normally doesn't matter, but if you use a "spell attack" that happens to involve a weapon (true strike) ... then it can matter a great deal. See what I mean?

What is a bonus action?

A Bonus Action is a special action that you can take on the same turn that you take an action. You can't take more than one Bonus Action on a turn, and you have a Bonus Action to take only if a rule explicitly says so. ... You choose when to take a Bonus Action during your turn unless the Bonus Action's timing is specific.

Actions-
... You can take only one action at a time.

Attack [Action]-
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.

(Rules Glossary, and I confirmed it before typing- from Bonus Action, Attack Action, and Actions)


Let's move away from handcrossbows to a Scimitar (light, nick) and Shortsword (light, vex).

Assume level one, equipped with both, nothing else going on.

Krom takes the attack action. Since he is using a light weapon, he can take a bonus attack with a light weapon. But bonus actions require a specified trigger. So which weapon is the attack with the light weapon, and which weapon is the bonus attack occurring with? Krom has two choices:

A. Attack with Scimitar (nick), bonus attack with shortsword (vex).
B. Attack with Shortsword (vex), bonus attack with scimitar (nick).

Now, Nick-
When you make the extra attack* of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

So in A, he is making the Attack Action with a weapon that has Nick, so when Krom "make{s} the extra attack of the Light property, {Krom} can make is as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action."

But for B? The Attack Action doesn't have nick. The Bonus Action was triggered by the light property, and it is still a bonus action. The extra attack was not triggered by the nick weapon... but by the second weapon being light, so what happens is that you end up with just the attack action and the bonus action, but you can't retcon the bonus action back into the attack action.

Notice that for 95% of use cases it doesn't matter; just remember that the "first attack" is with the nick weapon. But it does matter in terms of restricting a few cases.

Anyway, that is how I read it.

That’s a very well-reasoned interpretation. I’m skeptical that it’s the intent, but you have convinced me it’s a valid reading of the text.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Of course wielding a Hand Crossbow and a Dagger means you can't draw an ammunition and fire it as you need a free hand to load it first unless you have the Crossbow Expert feat, which isn't the OP case, meaning it must draw the Dagger after attacking with the Hand Crossbow.

 

[Charlaquin]

Of course wielding a Hand Crossbow and a Dagger means you can't draw an ammunition and fire it as you need a free hand to load it first unless you have the Crossbow Expert feat, which isn't the OP case, meaning it must draw the Dagger after attacking with the Hand Crossbow.

The thrown property allows you to draw and throw a weapon as part of the same action.

 

[ECMO3]

Well, at least for the 5e game I play in, the character in question has the Crossbow Expert feat, and thus uses the crossbow without issue if desired.

The crossbow expert feat is irrelevant, it only affects the loading property, not the ammunition property. The ammunition property is what requires the free hand.

This doesn't apply if the character is attacking purely from range, because the hand crossbow doesn't have Nick, the dagger does.

You can throw a dagger or light hammer from range using nick and RAW you can do this after you fire your hand crossbow as the hand crossbow is light. At least that is how I read it.

"Loading" doesn't actually say anything about needing to have a hand free to reload.

"Ammunition" says you need to have a free hand to reload. This is the wording on the Ammunition property:

"You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from it. The type of ammunition required is specified with the weapon’s range. Each attack expends one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). After a fight, you can spend 1 minute to recover half the ammunition (round down) you used in the fight; the rest is lost."

 

[ECMO3]

I understand it, that you can make 2 attacks, if you can fire it with an action first and then with a bonus action.

That was the case with the old 2014 Crossbow expert feat, but it is not the case in 2024 because the light property and the crossbow expert property require an arequires the attack to be made with a different light weapon.

 

[ECMO3]

nm

 

[ECMO3]

Of course wielding a Hand Crossbow and a Dagger means you can't draw an ammunition and fire it as you need a free hand to load it first unless you have the Crossbow Expert feat, which isn't the OP case, meaning it must draw the Dagger after attacking with the Hand Crossbow.

the XBow expert feat does not change this as it does not aleviate the need for a free hand to load as per the ammunition feat.

 

[Plaguescarred]

The Crossbow Expert feat specifically let you load a piece of ammunition into it even if you lack a free hand.

 

[Plaguescarred]

The thrown property allows you to draw and throw a weapon as part of the same action.

Yes, but only if you make a ranged attack. For melee attack, the Attack Action can also let you equip it before the attack as well.

If the extra attack of the Light property is a Dagger melee attack as a Bonus Action, then the Free Item Interaction would be needed to draw it before attacking.

Bottom line is that the Hand Crossbow and the Dagger need not be both wielded before taking the Attack Action, as confirmed by Sage Advice Compendium;

Can I make an attack with a Light weapon, then draw a second weapon with my other hand and qualify to make the extra attack of the Light property?​

Yes. The only requirement for the Light property’s extra attack is that it’s made with a different Light weapon.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That was the case with the old 2014 Crossbow expert feat, but it is not the case in 2024 because the light property and the crossbow expert property require an arequires the attack to be made with a different light weapon.

I never said you use the light property or anything. Lets assume quickened true strike and a non quickened one.