D&D 5E How do you use the Thief subclass features?

[Fanaelialae]

Climbing is usually really fun - you can be up on the roof and causing trouble in the first round of combat. Fast Hands I've also seen used creatively - great for pouring healing potions down throats, disarming traps while drawing weapons, and the like.

Per RAW, you can't use Fast hands to drink/administer healing potions.

DMG pg 141, under Activating an Item, specifically says that Fast Hands cannot be used to activate a magic item. Consuming a potion is listed as a form of magic item activation.

Pretty sure it works fine for non-magical items though, deploying ball bearings and the like.

 

[redrick]

Per RAW, you can't use Fast hands to drink/administer healing potions.

DMG pg 141, under Activating an Item, specifically says that Fast Hands cannot be used to activate a magic item. Consuming a potion is listed as a form of magic item activation.

Pretty sure it works fine for non-magical items though, deploying ball bearings and the like.

Hmm, I see that here in the DMG. "Activating some magic items requires a user to do something special, such as holding the item and uttering a command word ... If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Item action, so a feature such as the Rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item."

It then goes on to list potions as requiring the action of "drinking," so, yeah, that does seem to be the RAW.

The good news for all those potion pushing Thieves out there is that I imagine most DMs haven't read the DMG half as carefully as they've read the combat section of the PHB/basic rules. (I certainly haven't gone cover to cover on the guy, and I run a session every week. It's The Best Game of D&D Ever And I'm Sure The Players Love Every Minute Of It And Wouldn't Want Me To Change A Single Thing.)

For my own game, I might rule this the other way? Or I'd rule that administering a liquid requires an action in all cases? (Can I pour a flask of brandy down the throat of my teammate, but not a healing potion?) I guess if, at medium levels, the rogue is a walking apothecary and is just running around popping healing potions in everybody's mouth for some easy bonus action healing that is now affordable because mid-level characters have gobs of cash, well, this restriction might make sense. Or I might do something else to limit the number of healing potions the rogue can stockpile and administer quickly. (You can keep one potion in a readily accessible place, but if you walk around like some sort of Wayne Reynolds drawing with a bandolier of healing potions around your chest, expect to lose a lot of healing potions.)

I'll probably never have to worry about it, because I can't see any of the players in my game building a Thief character. These guys are assassins through and through.

 

[Fanaelialae]

For my own game, I might rule this the other way? Or I'd rule that administering a liquid requires an action in all cases? (Can I pour a flask of brandy down the throat of my teammate, but not a healing potion?) I guess if, at medium levels, the rogue is a walking apothecary and is just running around popping healing potions in everybody's mouth for some easy bonus action healing that is now affordable because mid-level characters have gobs of cash, well, this restriction might make sense. Or I might do something else to limit the number of healing potions the rogue can stockpile and administer quickly. (You can keep one potion in a readily accessible place, but if you walk around like some sort of Wayne Reynolds drawing with a bandolier of healing potions around your chest, expect to lose a lot of healing potions.)

Personally, I justify it by saying that magical potions require a moment to breathe before becoming active, and therefore fast hands doesn't apply (can't drink something quickly if you have to wait a second after uncorking it). That way a Thief can still down an anti-toxin with Fast Hands, if desired.

If you look closely enough though, there are plenty of other oddities created by Fast Hands. Why can you quickly dump 1,000 ball bearings nearby (without dropping any under your own feet), but can't toss a vial of holy water at something 5 ft away (since it requires an Attack action)? In the end you're always free to ignore the RAW and handle it as you'd prefer.

Although I could see one potential issue with the healing potion stockpiling Thief. Drawing an item is part of Interact with an Object, so even without a bandolier a Thief could drink a healing potion every other round if you allow them to do so with Fast Hands. That assumes, of course, that they even have enough potions to make that a possibility (by no means guaranteed). There are some potent potions in the game though, and being able to consume them as a bonus action is a very nice ability to have.

Thief seems to be the rogue archetype of choice at my table. Of the two 5e campaigns we're currently running, both parties contain a Thief. Curiously, that's the only duplicate class we have between the two parties. Although someone did play an assassin during the playtest.

 

[redrick]

If you look closely enough though, there are plenty of other oddities created by Fast Hands. Why can you quickly dump 1,000 ball bearings nearby (without dropping any under your own feet), but can't toss a vial of holy water at something 5 ft away (since it requires an Attack action)? In the end you're always free to ignore the RAW and handle it as you'd prefer.

All very true. The 6-second clock is fairly abstract, despite its deceptively specific duration.

Thief seems to be the rogue archetype of choice at my table. Of the two 5e campaigns we're currently running, both parties contain a Thief. Curiously, that's the only duplicate class we have between the two parties. Although someone did play an assassin during the playtest.

Cool, good to know. Our last Rogue character was actually killed when he dove into a room full of powerful NPCs in order to fully take advantage of his assassinate feature. But man, he did do a lot of damage to that one NPC before everybody else hightailed back to town under the cover of his screams.

 

[Unwise]

I play a Musketeer style character who is a fighter/thief. I use the "use item" bonus action all the time, often to gain combat advantage (in the broad or specific sense)

I pull the rug the bad guys are standing on,
cut down the curtain they are standing next to in the hope it blinds them,
swing on a chandelier,
spread caltrops or grease on the ground,
drink a potion,
snuff the lights,
light a fire,
lock the door so guards can't come in,
reload a firearm,
light a grenade,
drop a smokebomb,
pickpocket the badguys,
kick over a table for cover

I seldom use my abilities for actual thief style actions, mostly swashbuckling and Jackie Chan stuff. It is great fun.

This being said, wouldn't Arcane Trickster suit the character concept better than Thief? Seems like he would have picked up a trick or two and be good at avoiding magical traps.

 

[redrick]

I play a Musketeer style character who is a fighter/thief. I use the "use item" bonus action all the time, often to gain combat advantage (in the broad or specific sense)

I pull the rug the bad guys are standing on,
cut down the curtain they are standing next to in the hope it blinds them,
swing on a chandelier,
spread caltrops or grease on the ground,
drink a potion,
snuff the lights,
light a fire,
lock the door so guards can't come in,
reload a firearm,
light a grenade,
drop a smokebomb,
pickpocket the badguys,
kick over a table for cover

I seldom use my abilities for actual thief style actions, mostly swashbuckling and Jackie Chan stuff. It is great fun.

This being said, wouldn't Arcane Trickster suit the character concept better than Thief? Seems like he would have picked up a trick or two and be good at avoiding magical traps.

Good stuff, yeah, those sorts of things actually seem right in line with this character. As I was seeing the character, he's very explicitly not a caster. He's picked up enough to tell the difference between different arcane items (so he can make sure to pinch the right one), but he's not bright enough to actually cast spells on his own. I think the high level thief feature which allows for the using of all magical items seems to be about right. I was actually thinking about picking up a level or two of fighter as well. This is a guy who climbs in through your window to steal your newt eyes, but if you happen to be home, he'll to defend himself. Also, as the dynamics of the party worked out last week, he was the only character to make a single melee attack in combat, so if I want him to have a nice long life, second wind and the defensive fighting style could come in handy.

 

[Mistwell]

Per RAW, you can't use Fast hands to drink/administer healing potions.

DMG pg 141, under Activating an Item, specifically says that Fast Hands cannot be used to activate a magic item. Consuming a potion is listed as a form of magic item activation.

Pretty sure it works fine for non-magical items though, deploying ball bearings and the like.

I disagree about the first part of your statement. The action is not being used to activate a magic potion, it's being used to drink the potion, just as you'd drink a vial of water. Actions to activate items are listed in the magic item description - for instance, an wand requires an action to activate the magic. I do not think they mean using an action to pour something out of it - that can be done normally with fast hands I think.

As for your second point, I think it's a good one. This can be used with caltrops, a Hunting Trap, Manacles, vials of oil or alchemist fire or acid in a 5' area, etc..

In fact I wonder what sort of action it would take to use manacles on a creature that is not incapacitated? Could you grapple a creature and then use fast hands to put manacles on it? If they were knocked down and grappled (therefore their speed is zero) could you do it then?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I house ruled the thief, since I found it to be a little weak, particularly with the unnecessary DMG limitation on using magic items. I decided to ignore that, so the thief can drink a potion, throw a smokebomb, or toss a spell from a wand as a bonus.

Use Magic Device was lowered to 3, and we're adding the ability to temporarily steal an attribute from a creature at 13 instead (sort of like the thief of legend type ability). We haven't quite worked it out yet, but then again the party is only 5th level.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

In fact I wonder what sort of action it would take to use manacles on a creature that is not incapacitated? Could you grapple a creature and then use fast hands to put manacles on it? If they were knocked down and grappled (therefore their speed is zero) could you do it then?

I'd definitely allow it - the sneaky/quick handcuffing someone to something is a really common action movie trope. Plus the thief's Athletics score likely isn't awesome to grapple in the first place.

 

[Staffan]

All very true. The 6-second clock is fairly abstract, despite its deceptively specific duration.

The best combat turn length I've seen in an RPG was in Marvel Super Heroes: one frame.