How does the Paladin stack up?

[Archer]

I think all the divine feats were meant to be activated as free actions. They are grossly underpowered otherwise. It certainly isn't worth giving up your actions for a round for any of them. They give a medium bonus for a limited time and limited times per day.

 

[nharwell]

Re: Re: Re

We know that.


And we think it is utter BS. Compare it to Weapon Specialization, and you will understand what we are talking about. The FAQ is not completely official. Definitely more official than say, The New York Times, but not the end all be all of discussion on the matter. It is the electronic equivalent to Sage Advice.

In this matter, the FAQ is wrong. Simple.


Kind of like "Halfling outriders do not have BABs."

Actually, the FAQ is "completely official." That doesn't change the fact that it may be wrong. I certainly don't use all of it's rulings in MY campaign, but I think it's incorrect to call it "unofficial" -- for whatever reason, the FAQ is the vehicle that WOTC has chosen to deliver errata updates.

 

[Eridanis]

I'm playing a Pal9/Clr1/Hospitaler4 right now. I wanted some more spellcasting juice for my character (which is just as well, as our party now lacks a cleric!), and that certainly provides it, at the cost of some hit points and some roleplaying strictures.

Errataing Divine Might was a very good idea; I hadn't used it since 6th level or so, as that standard action was much more useful in moving towards the target, casting protection from evil, or some other thing. And getting an extra 3 damage per hit isn't that unbalancing now that we're fighting really nasty stuff; it's a nice bonus.

My mount right now is a gynosphinx, who has agreed to serve as my mount until she finds that solution to an ancient riddle that has perplexed her. Considering she has the highest INT, Spot, and Listen checks in the party, and we keep reduce potions handy (along with the Tiny Mount spell from Dragon 299), it doesn't much matter that I've made all of one or two attacks while riding her as a mount.

It's all about the RPing, anyway. If someone wants pure damage output, they'll go with some combination of rogue, fighter, and barbarian levels, anyway.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

One thing thats always important to clarify in these discussions is, "What level Paladin are we talking about?"

At low levels they seem pretty darn strong; that CHA bonus to saves mean you probably have better saves than the Monk; D-Evil is a fine, useful power. Things like Resist Disease and Immunity to Fear are very nice at low levels where every rat seems to have some disgusting disease and every evil Shaman seems to have prepared Cause Fear. Its never wrong to be able to throw out a couple points of healing. The BAB is good, you can wear armor and wield a serious weapon and you get a D10.

Haven't played them at high levels, but this should get you to level 6 in good shape.

I think you are more or less on the mark.

A plodding grunt in armor with good HPs, a little healing, saves, and a few other tricks up her sleeve is a very functional low level character. Being stacked up with defense instead of offense is not to everyone's taste, but it is a reasonable route.

At high levels good saves are very valuable because so much magic is flying wround. Any PC can easily die because of one bad roll. A +7 of +8 boost from Cha will be a real life saver. Holy Sword gives excellent offensive potential if you are fighting evil.

I think paladins look a little soft in the middling levels. You are likely to still be fighting a lot of tough dumb beasts and your damage output is looking a little anemic. The bad guys are starting to punch through your AC very consistently. That is an uncomfortable combo. Your spells are rather unexciting and your best trick, lay on hands, is looking a little tired.

I think it is very tempting for a single-classed paladin of 8th level to multiclass. With that additional +1 boost to Cha at 8th, your lay on hands looks very impressive for that short window until Heal shows up on the scene. You've peaked. And your bag of tricks is not going to improve until you taste those 4th level spells. That's a long, long wait. A level or two of fighter can really bring some spark back in the character.

There are a lot of believers on this board in that old saw, "the best defense is a good offense." That paladin doesn't fit that mold unless you know you are going to always be fighting evil. Or on horseback.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

A player in the game I DM presented the spell like that, but I don't read it that way.
"The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures and is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enchantment bonus."

Some read it as "The weapon negates the damage reduction of evil creatures. The weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enchantment bonus."

I read it as "The weapon negates the damage reduction of of evil creatures as if it had a +1 enchantment bonus. The weapon is capable of striking evil incorporeal creatures as if it had a +1 enchantment bonus."

Ah well.

The reason I don't interpret it this way is because it specifies between the damage reduction of evil creatures and the need for a +1 or better weapon to strike evil incorporeal creatures.

Incorpreal creatures do not have damage reduction. You need a +1 or better weapon to hit them and if you don't have one, it doesn't matter if have a 100 strength, you cannot hurt them.

I believe the spell was meant to allow a Paladin to penetrate the damage reduction of evil creatures and allow them to strike evil incorporeal creatures.

Let's be real here. The spell would be nigh on useless if it only allowed a paladin to strike as though they had a +1 weapon. An average Paladin will gain this spell at 4th level. By that time most paladins will have obtained a +1 magic weapon except in the most low magic campaign imaginable.

I believe Bless Weapon was meant to provide the Paladin with a spell that would be useful throughout all his levels and allow him to really destroy evil. Until the sage rules otherwise, I believe bless weapon was meant to allow the penetration of any damage reduction by any evil creature. Otherwise, it would be relatively useless for even a 4th level Paladin except in very low magic campaigns.

 

[Fenes 2]

I interprete the wording of bless weapon as negating DR of evil creatures. While the more conservative interpretation has merit, I think game balance is better served by giving a paladin more punch against evil creatures with DR.

(Incidentally, or group's paladin has a holy sword that works as a blessed weapon.)

 

[Zerth]

Errataing Divine Might was a very good idea; I hadn't used it since 6th level or so, as that standard action was much more useful in moving towards the target, casting protection from evil, or some other thing. And getting an extra 3 damage per hit isn't that unbalancing now that we're fighting really nasty stuff; it's a nice bonus.

There is no errata on Divine Might. As ConcreteBuddha already said, the FAQ is not official errata, it's just The Sage's interpretation. You must assume, that every divine feat requires no action to activate, if The Sage would be right. But with all due respect, he is wrong. The Sage is usually right, but he's human too and has made mistakes before. All you unbelievers hear me now: (DotF, page 19, Divine Feats)
"Since turning or rebuking is a standard action, activating any of these feats is also a standard action.
Third, you can't use the Quicken Turning feat to speed up the use of a divine feat."

That leaves no room for interpretation from you, me or The Sage. In addition, one thing bothers me. The FAQ provides no arguments, why rules have changed. I assume, that The Sage thinks he's not changing anything, just clarifying the rules. But he's certainly making new rules and doesn't realize it.

IMO, Divine Might is certainly too powerful, if it's used as a free action. Level 3 paladin can take it and such a character could have charisma modifier as high as +5. That's a killer damage bonus even at higher levels especially if it doesn't need any activation to use like most items and spells. It can be used multiple times per day and it stacks with everything.
Divine might is a nice feat even if it requires a standard action. It's a good choice for any paladin (not many paladins with low Cha) and fighter/clerics with decent charisma. I don't see any reason making it a feat, that EVERY paladin ever existed would be wise to take.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I agree. I wouldn't get rid of divine might whether or not it is standard action to activate. I had been using a standard action to activate it until I read the FAQ for DotF.

I'm just as happy to use it as a free action as well. It makes no difference to me or my DM.

 

[Eridanis]

IMO, Divine Might is certainly too powerful, if it's used as a free action.

Fair enough, for your campaign. I can see how using it as a free action might be unbalancing in some campaigns, but we're in a low magic/low ability scores campaign - heck, it was only two sessions ago that I scraped together enough gp for a cloak of charisma +2 to boost my CHA to 18, and we're a 13th -14th level party. The extra +4 damage, at the cost of a turning attempt, ain't gonna break our game; YMMV, of course.

And until WotC gets off the stick and issues official errata on year-and-a-half old product, we accept the Sage's rulings as official, being published in an official magazine.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

cloak of charisma +2 to boost my CHA to 18, and we're a 13th -14th level party.

Okay then, please attempt to look at it from the perspective of the DMG and all other players who are playing this game with the prescribed gp values PCs should get at 13-14th level.

13th level: 110,000 gp
14th level: 150,000 gp

A Cloak of Charisma +6 is 36,000 which is easily obtained at that level. With a starting Charisma of 15, +3 from level adjustments, and +2 from Aasimar, (which everyone plays nowadays *grin*), you get a 26 Charisma.

That's a bonus of +8. To damage. Against any creature. For eight rounds. (Most combats last less than eight rounds.) A paladin can do this 11 times a day. This bonus stacks with everything, on any weapon (including projectile weapons).
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I thought the feat was overpowered before the Sage went batty. Now it's just abhorrent. Kinda like Armor of Speed. (A +7 ability if I've ever seen one.)