D&D General How far from the source can we stray?

[Gadget]

I guess It would depend on how 'mainstream' you want to be, or how much 'mainstream appeal' you want to have. Asking the same question 30 years ago would have had a very different answer.

I would say it depends on how much you want to lean into a strong and flavored setting, or one that leverages the public psyche to some degree. Tolkien did that by leaning into Northern European myths and legends, while putting his own stamp on Elves and dwarves. I would say that Halflings (Hobbits) are the only race that is truly his. And he doesn't really claim humans, as most settings have that. I've seen plenty of settings that did not have elves, dwarves & halflings--yet still stood on their own.

For instance, if you are doing a Watership Down setting, humans can be jettisoned as well. Same with Redwall. Yet in these instances you have to lean heavily on your own setting/story and not expect the default fantasy interest to take over. Personally, I think you can do a fine fantasy setting without the usual demi-humans (Conan, GOT, and many others), but you may have to upsell if you have very unusual races that are off the beaten path, particularly if plain-jane humans are absent as well.

 

[Mannahnin]

I like what the late B.J. Johnson of Bigfella Games did with his setting/adventure supplements for Labyrinth Lord like The Thousand Year Sandglass and The Creepy Crawl. Labyrinth Lord, like, of course, B/X which it's cloning, has at its base the four core classes as humans, and has three demi-human classes (Elf, Dwarf, Halfling).

BJ's approach was to replace the three classic demihumans with options that fulfill the same basic "role" (magical, sturdy, agile) that better fit the setting in question. So for the Arabian Nights-flavored Thousand Year Sandglass, that's the Jann, Largoman, and Kedai. In the Halloween/spooky-themed Creepy Crawl, it's the Dampyr, Humanculous, and Grimling.

This approach uses the race options to support the setting, while still giving players options which fit some familiar archetypes in terms of play style.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

As others have said, it depends greatly on what the players want from the game. If the party is fine with a setting where you can only play warforged and the only monsters are different types of ooze, then D&D can handle it.

D&D is such a hodgepodge of different influences, it can be enormously elastic. Tolkien casts a long shadow over fantasy, but D&D draws from a deep well. Parts of which are super-weird already.

 

[squibbles]

I'm developing a fantasy setting, and I'm drawing heavily from weird fiction for it - mostly a mixture of C.L. Moore, Robert E Howard, and China Miéville, blended with 1001 Nights and with a dash of Jules Verne for good measure, and I'm wrestling a bit with character options. My goal is a system-agnostic world that nonetheless carries its own ruleset, and obviously I'd like it to be as broadly accessible as possible. I have ideas for plant creatures and mineral creatures and such for player character options, but I worry that prioritizing such non-standard folk will turn off many people - particularly the OSR crowd, despite the fact that my overall approach draws very heavily from OSR games.

My central conceit is a (human) society, assailed on the surface of the world, had its most powerful magic users perform a feat of unimaginable sorcery and moved the population to the interior of the planet. Now, generations later, they have branched out from the initial settlements and discovered that, somehow, they are not alone.

My intention is to have the setting remain as generally compatible with everything else as possible. After all, most adventures don't really concern themselves with what's actually up in the heavens; as long as you can tell whether it is day or night, who cares what's beyond the sun? I've been running a game set in it for a few months now, using a modified version of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, and none of my players have even noticed the abnormality (aside from a casual remark about the lack of dwarves). This experience tells me the idea works.

You already listed a set of reference works but, considering the premise of your setting, you might consider borrowing from the hollow earth genre or leaning on its tropes a bit. Even if you're doing something far from vanilla flavor, it can help to leverage archetypes your audience will recognize.

Not so much part of the goal as part of my concern. I'm reminded of a conversation I had months ago with someone, in which I was griping about the physical redesign Thri-Kreen underwent in the WotC era.

[...]

The first D&D character I ever played was a thri-kreen, and I loved leaning into their strangeness. But the response of the person with whom I was discussing the situation was "I don't want to play a giant bug."

Different strokes for different folks.

Remember that, in addition to introducing thri-kreen, darksun retained the standard demi-humans and introduced muls--which are basically humans but big and tough. The strangeness is there as seasoning for the people who like it, but there are plenty of odd but still familiar options for less avant-garde players. That is not to say don't go for strange and off-kilter plant and mineral people, but maybe invent or reuse some humanoid creatures that are less obviously alien. They don't have to be elves. Clark Ashton Smith's hollow world has snake people in it, for example.

I think the OSR blogosphere's New Crobuzon challenge is a good exercise for balancing the strange with the very strange for a new weird style OSR setting:

1) Take your three favorite human-ish monsters out of the Monster Manual and they are minority citizens in the city. Detail how they get along, how being in the city has culturally changed them and what niches they fill in the city. How do the powers that rule the city keep them down?​

​

2) Take three really bizarre f[...]ing monsters and figure out how they exist in the nooks and crannies of the city and how the powers that rule the city keep these beasts from doing unacceptable amounts of damage?​

​

3) Um…play?​

For your purposes, that would be the frontiers of the human enclave in the planet's interior rather than a city. Here's a page with links to some posts by other OSR types.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

In the Forgotten Realms Humans may be about 2/3rds of the playable thinking peoples and are probably 50% of all thinking peoples(?). CS

Is that correct? There are so many thinking peoples in FR I have a hard time believing humans are 50% of them.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I would also say it depends how alien your races truly are. Are they people with different ears and skin, like Star Trek, or playable slimes?

 

[bedir than]

Is that correct? There are so many thinking peoples in FR I have a hard time believing humans are 50% of them.

I didn't include gods, demons, devils, angels, dragons - just the "playable races" and gave it a wild-ass guess based on browsing too many fandom.wiki pages about the Realms.

 

[Ath'kethin]

You already listed a set of reference works but, considering the premise of your setting, you might consider borrowing from the hollow earth genre or leaning on its tropes a bit. Even if you're doing something far from vanilla flavor, it can help to leverage archetypes your audience will recognize.



Different strokes for different folks.

Remember that, in addition to introducing thri-kreen, darksun retained the standard demi-humans and introduced muls--which are basically humans but big and tough. The strangeness is there as seasoning for the people who like it, but there are plenty of odd but still familiar options for less avant-garde players. That is not to say don't go for strange and off-kilter plant and mineral people, but maybe invent or reuse some humanoid creatures that are less obviously alien. They don't have to be elves. Clark Ashton Smith's hollow world has snake people in it, for example.

I think the OSR blogosphere's New Crobuzon challenge is a good exercise for balancing the strange with the very strange for a new weird style OSR setting:

1) Take your three favorite human-ish monsters out of the Monster Manual and they are minority citizens in the city. Detail how they get along, how being in the city has culturally changed them and what niches they fill in the city. How do the powers that rule the city keep them down?​

​

2) Take three really bizarre f[...]ing monsters and figure out how they exist in the nooks and crannies of the city and how the powers that rule the city keep these beasts from doing unacceptable amounts of damage?​

​

3) Um…play?​

For your purposes, that would be the frontiers of the human enclave in the planet's interior rather than a city. Here's a page with links to some posts by other OSR types.

I really like that New Crobuzon challenge; it's right in line with my thinking but codifies it a bit. I hadn't heard of it before, so thanks! And since Perdido Street Station and The Scar are two favorite books of mine, I absolutely see the application.

The Jules Verne influence mentioned is partly the Hollow Earth approach. Mystara's Hollow World also played a role, but only a bit.

Dark Sun's reliance on subverting expectations with the core races was cool, but I'd like to go even farther. How to make mineral people plant people relatable and
appealing? Therein lies the struggle, and the appeal.

 

[squibbles]

I really like that New Crobuzon challenge; it's right in line with my thinking but codifies it a bit. I hadn't heard of it before, so thanks! And since Perdido Street Station and The Scar are two favorite books of mine, I absolutely see the application.

Glad it helps. I always find those kinds of constraints and exercises to be a great tool for world-building. The restrictions lead to more creative ideas.

The Jules Verne influence mentioned is partly the Hollow Earth approach. Mystara's Hollow World also played a role, but only a bit.

Derp. I completely forgot Journey to the Center of the Earth was Verne. You might also poach from Pellucidar or The Coming Race for more pulp and esoteric strangeness.

How to make mineral people plant people relatable and appealing? Therein lies the struggle, and the appeal.

One of my settings has plant people with a kaldane-rykor biology--ambulatory animal body, with a photosynthetic head that sits in its neck like a potted plant. It's a bit similar to Bas-Lag's khepri, not sure if you consider that a plus or minus.

...of course, I suspect many players would not find them relatable or appealing.

 

[Ath'kethin]

Glad it helps. I always find those kinds of constraints and exercises to be a great tool for world-building. The restrictions lead to more creative ideas.


Derp. I completely forgot Journey to the Center of the Earth was Verne. You might also poach from Pellucidar or The Coming Race for more pulp and esoteric strangeness.


One of my settings has plant people with a kaldane-rykor biology--ambulatory animal body, with a photosynthetic head that sits in its neck like a potted plant. It's a bit similar to Bas-Lag's khepri, not sure if you consider that a plus or minus.

...of course, I suspect many players would not find them relatable or appealing.

I am a firm believer that restrictions and constraints spur creativity! There's nothing more difficult to work with than a completely blank slate IMO.

My hollow-earth approach is heavily informed by Mystara's Hollow World in many ways, but I want far more room for exploration and discovery. I like the Jules Verne "what is even out there?" approach to the idea.

I've never heard of Pellucidar or The Coming Race; I'll look into them.

The cacatacae from Bas-Lag are one of my inspirations for the plant folk, though I think I want mine to be more vine based.

Doing them as an insectoid-plant mix is an interesting concept, too . . .