How Good can Evil be?

[Al]

I think he's on the LN/LE borderline, which makes things difficult. Largely, a lot will be determined as to what sort of society he is creating. If it's a win-win situation for all parties involved, or even if he doesn't go out of his way to cause suffering, I don't see why he'd be precluded from being LN. However, if he deliberately oppresses minorities for the purported good of the country/majority he's drifting to LE. Doing so for the benefit of his pocket swings him round to NE.

eg. The secret police. Three thought processes, three different alignments.

"The secret police can work on dissenters and dissidents and create stability. A civil war would cost thousands of lives, so it's really just a balance of calculations. And only the worst offenders need be executed - a few targeted beatings can easily get the message across" (LN)

"By conducting a mass wave of executions, we can take out the leaders of the dissident movement, cow the opposition back into line and preserve the regime. If that fails, we'll move on to friends and family. Long live the king!" (LE)

"This secret police is a great idea. I can claim national security *and* bump off that bard who made a joke about me at the last court performance" (NE)

As for what the PCs should do, it's a tough call, but sometimes it's better to let (particularly Lawful) Evil people remain in place in order to ensure stability and order for a nation. Perhaps the PCs could speak to the king about the morality of a "secret police" that bumps off internal dissent, and conduct a rational debate. It's a roleplaying situation, a battle of wits and diplomacy rather than the lawful-stupid "Smite Evil" approach.

 

[domino]

Need more information - He detects as Evil. Why, what does he do that is evil? From the description he is Lawful Neutral, what does he do that sets off Detect Evil?

"The king has decided that he wants some more land for his garden. But the peasants who till the land are reluctant to move, and the king is to kind hearted to do so. Go, my assassains, and kill them all, while I tell the king they changed their mind. While you're at it, see if you can take care of their family. They might start asking questions about where they went."

 

[arscott]

definately Lawful-Evil.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

"The king has decided that he wants some more land for his garden. But the peasants who till the land are reluctant to move, and the king is to kind hearted to do so. Go, my assassains, and kill them all, while I tell the king they changed their mind. While you're at it, see if you can take care of their family. They might start asking questions about where they went."

There, now that's evil!

The Auld Grump

 

[jgsugden]

Simple answer:

Ask the DM. When there is a question on the alignment, the DM must be the final judge. He sets the rules.

If the DM is asking, then the answer is simple. There are many answers, all of which have arguments supporting them. I could list a dozen reasons for calling the fellow you described LN, LE or NE. Heck, I might even go so far as to say I could make an argument for LG ... but that would be pushing it.

When you're talking alignment and there are many ways to go, the DM just has to make a decision based upon his interpretation and go with it.

As a point, though: Try using a novelists tactics in hand. An NPC's complexity should parallel his prominence. If the NPC will not be around for more than 1 encounter, he should have 1, very prominent character trait. If he is going to be a constant presence in the game, he warrants a more complex personality. If you give a 1 shot NPC (that is likely to die in an adventure) too much personality, it muddies the water too much and slows down the game. If the NPC has one dominant trait, it is easy to put him in his place in terms of alignment.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

So he has secret police who kill people who cause trouble. This doesn't sound too much different then a group of PCs who go around killing kobolds for causing trouble. So presumably he could be Lawful Good, it just depends on who he kills with his assassins and for what reasons.

 

[domino]

If the DM is asking, then the answer is simple. There are many answers, all of which have arguments supporting them. I could list a dozen reasons for calling the fellow you described LN, LE or NE.

As the DM hopeful, I realize that.

I just wanted other people's opinion, on him. I'd like to generally follow the alignment rules as given, so that people will be more likely to buy him as an evil person. Even though, many of the things he does would fall under the general heading of "good."

Like send people out to help and support players, when they go off to fight the monster. Who happen to be his squad of assassains, with orders to help the PCs, unless they start snooping around when they shouldn't.

Or give the paladin an Axiomatic sword. Because there's a chaotic creature out there ruining some other plans he has.

There, now that's evil!

Ain't it though?

 

[William Ronald]

Even if the NPC has been acting in a generally good way, domino, the action you described is evil. The fact that the advisor is trying to eliminate any possible tie to his actions with the murder of the family compounds it. Also, the reason that the advisor seems to be commiting this act through his proxies is to curry favor with the king. (As the advisor supports the existing order, I would argue that lawful evil is the most appropriate alignment. Lawful evil characters can feel loyalty to someone, seeking to advance themselves underneath someone else's banner. The advisor may realize that although he can never become king, he still has an important rule to play in the kingdom.)

Even a "good" person may cause the death of an innocent person -- but should be expected to atone for it to maintain this status. (I can think of a prominent example, but it would perhaps veer too closely to the rule against religious discussions.)

The NPC may well see himself as a patriot, and could well justify his actions on a legitimate feeling of patriotism. Sometimes villains can be made more interesting by having their faults stem from what would normally be a virtue. So, the advisor may well be legitimately concerned with his nation's security. However, he can also be someone who will use brutal tactics to get the job done. For example, the advisor may believe he has to ensure that he maintains good relations with the king. Possibly he has a proposal he wishes to sell to the king -- one that may well benefit the nation. So, perhaps ensuring that the king is happy can be justified by the advisor as necessary.

Also, the advisor may not see himself as evil. However, you might consider giving the advisor an item to mask his alignment and other detection spells on him. Thus, the PCs will have to figure out whether he is evil or not. I suspect that in a world with detect evil spells, at least some percentage of people will hide their alignment auras.

The players may have a few dilemmas in how to deal with the advisor. This is the sort of situation where diplomacy and alliances are more important than a sword. I suspect that if the advisor may be a likely adversary, there may be someone in the court who opposes his plans. Possibly the PCs could gain a potential ally down the road. (Presume that any potential ally is as competent. A potential ally could also be testing the PCs, to determine where their true loyalties lie and whether he can trust them.) Of course, the PCs may end up becoming the king's advisors and champions. The player of a rogue character might have a long term goal of replacing the advisor as the nation's intelligence chief. Domino, good luck with your players!

 

[domino]

The mask idea works, except for one problem. I want the players to know he's evil. I just want them to think really hard about whether they can, or even should, try to do something against him.

I'm not aiming for a good person who has slipped into evil for good deeds. I'm trying for a truly evil person, who does good things, to support his own goals.

The idea about an opposing, Good member of court is a good one, that I hadn't thought of.

 

[Dracomeander]

Read the description of Detect Evil again. Unless the advisor is a cleric or has the outsider type, he will only detect as a faint or weak source of evil no matter how evil his acts are until he gains near epic character levels. Can the players justify acting against such a minor source of evil without incontrovertible proof?