D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Lanefan]

If I go to Disney World and it rains the whole time I'm there, and then tell everyone I know not to go there because you'll have a miserable time standing in the rain all day, that's not a valid observation of what Disney World is like.

Off topic - this is exactly my experience with Disney World/Orlando: the one and only time I ever got there it poured* the whole time.

Might not match the experience of others, and that's fair; but the memory doesn't exactly encourage me to want to rush back.

* - and during a side trip to the Kennedy Space Centre a building about 300 feet from where I was standing got hit by lightning.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I have seen shooting stars since my childhood. Does not meant that they are a common sight either. Hey! I will have the chance to see the Halley comet twice in my life time if I live long enough! Does not make it common sight either. Your argument can work both ways.

I believe I used the phrase "in either direction" in my post, did I not?

I have the clear feeling that these complaints are way more common than they were. I took a small look at the old Dragon magazines, articles and letters about this were about once a year and many years, no articles or letters at all.

And other people have seen it, extensively, for a long time. So basically, why should anyone take your claim seriously who's seen the opposite? I mean, you're going to feel what you're going to feel, same as a couple others, but its based on a premise that is not objectively demonstrable in any meaningful fashion, and runs directly counter to what others have seen. So this is, fundamentally, a null argument; it may be a position you came by honestly, but its one that only makes sense from your perspective and those who've seen the same phenomena.

 

[Helldritch]

I believe I used the phrase "in either direction" in my post, did I not?



And other people have seen it, extensively, for a long time. So basically, why should anyone take your claim seriously who's seen the opposite? I mean, you're going to feel what you're going to feel, same as a couple others, but its based on a premise that is not objectively demonstrable in any meaningful fashion, and runs directly counter to what others have seen. So this is, fundamentally, a null argument; it may be a position you came by honestly, but its one that only makes sense from your perspective and those who've seen the same phenomena.

But at least, I have quite a few dozens (note the plural on dozen) questions which go the same way others are describing. Which make my personal experience not limited to a few but quite a lot of people. But since you are so eager to dismiss my claim, then the discussion leads nowhere. I have been approached by many asking how to manage these. You haven't. So if my experience means nothing. The dozens of young DMs asking me how to manage seems to be irrelevant to you. So what is left to discuss? Nothing.

So for others who find that indeed, there are more self entitled players out there than there were before; what made them appear in such numbers in 5ed? Of this I am really curious.

 

[Lanefan]

I have the clear feeling that these complaints are way more common than they were. I took a small look at the old Dragon magazines, articles and letters about this were about once a year and many years, no articles or letters at all.

In fairness, I think a lot of the difference is that these complaints have become far more public and accessible than they were, due to all of us having access to - among other avenues - forums like these where such complaints can be aired (mostly) unedited.

Remember, Dragon magazine had a quite natural built-in bias toward TSR's game; which meant any articles and letters had to go through an editorial filter that included said bias.

Personally, my take is that complaints about system/rules haven't changed much in volume across all the editions, while complaints about players have maybe increased a bit but have more changed in their tone and focus; with "over-entitled" becoming a more common complaint today where "rules-lawyer" was more common in the 3e era and "munchkin" was more common during 1e. Meanwhile "wangrod" has been relatively constant in volume throughout and probably always will be.

 

[Thomas Shey]

But at least, I have quite a few dozens (note the plural on dozen) questions which go the same way others are describing. Which make my personal experience not limited to a few but quite a lot of people. But since you are so eager to dismiss my claim, then the discussion leads nowhere. I have been approached by many asking how to manage these. You haven't. So if my experience means nothing. The dozens of young DMs asking me how to manage seems to be irrelevant to you. So what is left to discuss? Nothing.

Largely true. But just be aware you're essentially have the discussion with an echo chamber.

I could point out how long, and in how wide a range of venues I've heard the same complaints, but it fundamentally doesn't matter to you.

 

[Arilyn]

5e has become the current target to complain about "entitled" players. I remember when Rifts was hugely popular, and there was a lot of grumbles about how the nature of the game spawned abusive power fantasy players who didn't want to actually be challenged.

I have never played Rifts, so maybe that really was a thing? Pretty sure there was a lot of exaggeration going on though.

In my experience players haven't changed. Same qualities, good and bad.

 

[Helldritch]

Largely true. But just be aware you're essentially have the discussion with an echo chamber.

I could point out how long, and in how wide a range of venues I've heard the same complaints, but it fundamentally doesn't matter to you.

On the contrary, I would be very much interested to hear your stories and how many people they concern.
I'm in the 60 to 70 (around) different DMs young and old who talk with me about these. Especially on the VTT (by the way, for the older DM) but more face to face type with the younger ones. A few of my players are DM in their own right and they play on VTT and they see these players almost daily. One of my friends in Toronto had to put a warning on his VTT invite to prevent such players to come to his games...

I usually take a very cautious about echo chamber as I often check and double check my sources. So far, in my entourage and not even in my groups, it seems to be way more common than what it used to be. So what makes you think that I am in an echo chamber? I do not have the problem. But lots of people come to me for advice on how to manage these players. And they come in numbers that I have never seen in almost 40 years of DMing. Am I the only one because I do games for show at our hobby store? Do I bring them in drove because I have been known to help? Or do others have this problem but simply sweep it under the rug and act as if it does not exist? I really want to understand.

 

[Remathilis]

5e has become the current target to complain about "entitled" players. I remember when Rifts was hugely popular, and there was a lot of grumbles about how the nature of the game spawned abusive power fantasy players who didn't want to actually be challenged.

I have never played Rifts, so maybe that really was a thing? Pretty sure there was a lot of exaggeration going on though.

In my experience players haven't changed. Same qualities, good and bad.

Rifts was one of those systems where the notion of class-balance was never even considered. A character who was a glitter-boy or a M-Fn Dragon were uber-powerful from the beginning, while a mage other "mortal" character barely could contribute (a lot of that came from how damage was done, with certain classes doing damage so high it used its own separate type of HP while normal people did vastly less. It was the equivalent of trying to destroy the Death Star with a letter opener).

But yeah, Rifts soaked up a lot of entitled players. So did V:TM who played unstopable Brujah (or whatever the hot new clan was). So did Dark Sun (probably the best honey-trap for entitled power-gamers; let them roll up PCs with 24 strength scores and then watch them die of dehydration). None of this is entirely new to 5e.

 

[Thomas Shey]

On the contrary, I would be very much interested to hear your stories and how many people they concern.
I'm in the 60 to 70 (around) different DMs young and old who talk with me about these.

Context: I'm going to be turning 65 in May. I started playing RPGs with OD&D in 1975. Over the years from that, during the early days I was involved with multiple gaming groups and clubs on the West Coast in one fashion or another, and went to conventions regularly until, I want to say 1995. I was also continuously involved in multiple APAs (amateur press association zines, the closest thing to fora or mailing lists in those periods, which were produced by people in various areas and their contribution mailed (usually; some zines you could simply type your zine and mail it in, paying the collator to do the printing for you, which I did most of the time because getting things printed locally was tricky); the most well known one I was involved in was Alarums and Excursions, but also less well known ones such as Rogue's Gallery and The Lord's of Chaos), later on mailing lists, then yet later USENET's RPG related groups, fora once they came along, and now various Discords.

I cannot think of a single one of those venues where I did not hear people complaining about entitled players, GM's with God complexes, or both (early on this was so damn common it began to set me on the road to conclude that the GM-authority model had serious problems right out the gate, something that has not decreased over time). Sometimes early on it might not be framed as "entitled", but just "bad", because it was taken as such a given that challenging the GM about, well, anything was intrinsically bad behavior. If I was to estimate how many times I'd seen this complaint over the years, I'd suggest the minimum case lands in the hundreds (it had exceeded a hundred probably back in the three years I was involved with OD&D proper, just from comments at conventions, in the APAs, and in the game clubs I participated in (one relatively small, but one middlin' large). Once you started including the digital communication, this blossomed over time such that if you told me it was in multiple thousands, I would not be noticeably surprised. There's been some change in framing over the years, but the fundamentals of the complaints have not changed much; GMs claiming players have unreasonable expectations.

Now, does this mean the complaints are never unwarranted? No. Sometimes its GMs on a power trip, sometimes its players with tunnel vision about their specific wants compared to the overall health of the game and/or how those wants impact other players' equally valid wants, sometimes both at once or some middle case.

But the point is: this is not new. As was suggested earlier, if it appears new that is most likely a consequence of D&D5e having brought in a large surge of new blood, unlike the OD&D and AD&D days (where most people coming in were either wargamers or SF fans (who often had some limited experience with freeform RP even back then--you could see some of it coming up in Star Trek and Pern fandom even then), or the D&D3e days (where you got some non-trivial returnees who had left D&D for other games but were willing to return to see how this significant change impacted the game experience), these people are new. Their expectations are set by things that are not always congruent with how the play experience works. I can see how this can make it seem like there's a massive surge here, because even a modest one can easily stand out, especially if one encounters a number of people dealing with mostly new players entering the hobby.

But attempts to claim this is somehow intrinsic to 5e just falls kind of flat. I've looked at 5e; I'm not a fan. But there's nothing I see there that would make anything the game brings to the table create more problems in this area than 3e did, and even that looks dubious given how many of these complaints I saw and then later read about D&D players across the OD&D through AD&D2e--extensively--across literally decades--its a hard sell. Even moreso since I've also seen it about any number of other games over the years.

Especially on the VTT (by the way, for the older DM) but more face to face type with the younger ones. A few of my players are DM in their own right and they play on VTT and they see these players almost daily. One of my friends in Toronto had to put a warning on his VTT invite to prevent such players to come to his games...

I usually take a very cautious about echo chamber as I often check and double check my sources. So far, in my entourage and not even in my groups, it seems to be way more common than what it used to be. So what makes you think that I am in an echo chamber? I do not have the problem. But lots of people come to me for advice on how to manage these players. And they come in numbers that I have never seen in almost 40 years of DMing. Am I the only one because I do games for show at our hobby store? Do I bring them in drove because I have been known to help? Or do others have this problem but simply sweep it under the rug and act as if it does not exist? I really want to understand.

Does the above make it more clear why my position on this is cynical? I might even buy there's a (modest) increase in problems here in the D&D sphere, simply because more new blood has entered there in the last few years, and that's going to stand out. But its the cause-and-effect I really turn a jaundiced eye to, because the complaints seem much the same--and there were plenty of them--over the decades.

 

[Helldritch]

Context: I'm going to be turning 65 in May. I started playing RPGs with OD&D in 1975. Over the years from that, during the early days I was involved with multiple gaming groups and clubs on the West Coast in one fashion or another, and went to conventions regularly until, I want to say 1995. I was also continuously involved in multiple APAs (amateur press association zines, the closest thing to fora or mailing lists in those periods, which were produced by people in various areas and their contribution mailed (usually; some zines you could simply type your zine and mail it in, paying the collator to do the printing for you, which I did most of the time because getting things printed locally was tricky); the most well known one I was involved in was Alarums and Excursions, but also less well known ones such as Rogue's Gallery and The Lord's of Chaos), later on mailing lists, then yet later USENET's RPG related groups, fora once they came along, and now various Discords.

I cannot think of a single one of those venues where I did not hear people complaining about entitled players, GM's with God complexes, or both (early on this was so damn common it began to set me on the road to conclude that the GM-authority model had serious problems right out the gate, something that has not decreased over time). Sometimes early on it might not be framed as "entitled", but just "bad", because it was taken as such a given that challenging the GM about, well, anything was intrinsically bad behavior. If I was to estimate how many times I'd seen this complaint over the years, I'd suggest the minimum case lands in the hundreds (it had exceeded a hundred probably back in the three years I was involved with OD&D proper, just from comments at conventions, in the APAs, and in the game clubs I participated in (one relatively small, but one middlin' large). Once you started including the digital communication, this blossomed over time such that if you told me it was in multiple thousands, I would not be noticeably surprised. There's been some change in framing over the years, but the fundamentals of the complaints have not changed much; GMs claiming players have unreasonable expectations.

Now, does this mean the complaints are never unwarranted? No. Sometimes its GMs on a power trip, sometimes its players with tunnel vision about their specific wants compared to the overall health of the game and/or how those wants impact other players' equally valid wants, sometimes both at once or some middle case.

But the point is: this is not new. As was suggested earlier, if it appears new that is most likely a consequence of D&D5e having brought in a large surge of new blood, unlike the OD&D and AD&D days (where most people coming in were either wargamers or SF fans (who often had some limited experience with freeform RP even back then--you could see some of it coming up in Star Trek and Pern fandom even then), or the D&D3e days (where you got some non-trivial returnees who had left D&D for other games but were willing to return to see how this significant change impacted the game experience), these people are new. Their expectations are set by things that are not always congruent with how the play experience works. I can see how this can make it seem like there's a massive surge here, because even a modest one can easily stand out, especially if one encounters a number of people dealing with mostly new players entering the hobby.

But attempts to claim this is somehow intrinsic to 5e just falls kind of flat. I've looked at 5e; I'm not a fan. But there's nothing I see there that would make anything the game brings to the table create more problems in this area than 3e did, and even that looks dubious given how many of these complaints I saw and then later read about D&D players across the OD&D through AD&D2e--extensively--across literally decades--its a hard sell. Even moreso since I've also seen it about any number of other games over the years.



Does the above make it more clear why my position on this is cynical? I might even buy there's a (modest) increase in problems here in the D&D sphere, simply because more new blood has entered there in the last few years, and that's going to stand out. But its the cause-and-effect I really turn a jaundiced eye to, because the complaints seem much the same--and there were plenty of them--over the decades.

Thank you for sharing this. It will give cause to ponder my own experience which is similar and very different at the same time.

Maybe the sudden maasive influx of new players make it appears as worse than it is, but each edition had brought its share of new blood and never were thw complaints so ... numerous? Maybe the fact that 5ed is way over the others in popularity just gave the impression that it is a rather new problem in scope but somehow, I do not feel it is so. Still, the amount of new players is not to be ignore.

Thanks again for sharing your experience.