D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Thomas Shey]

Yarent being dismissed and are in fact doing just that to others that who are talking about how the game changed and elements of those changes. The "elite array" is the only array now and as a result the tourguide still for some reason called the DM is setup with an uphill battle just to nerf that down to [/i] standard[/i] point buy. Where you could still pick the type of class that you want to play right? "magic items are optional" doesn't have quite the same ring as"magic items are already baked into pcs during character creation"

Should it give more options? Probably. But that's really not what the complaints come across as; the same people seem like they'd be perfectly happy if there was only one array option but it suited their tastes. So it just comes across as complaining that its their ox being gored, rather than other people's the way it was for a long time.

D&D has always put a thumb on the scale of where characters were going to land on power scale in attributes; even when there were alternates, just the fact they were alternates did that. So the fact there's a default some people don't like is nothing new here; its just that one time the defaults served different people's needs than they do now.

 

[overgeeked]

To you. You want gaming to be exciting. Other people play for other reasons, such as chilling out with friends. It's not up to you what other people want to get out of a game.

Is this a variation of that ridiculous “you didn’t say ‘in my opinion’ therefore you must think your subjective opinion is objective fact” nonsense?

 

[Thomas Shey]

This brings up a mighty incongruity in the old-school argument here. The idea that you should be able to choose your race (subject to the restrictions of your ability score rolls), but you should NOT be able to choose your strength (for example), is incongruous. It illustrates that the desired limits on choice are entirely arbitrary.

Don't think that wasn't a train of thought in some old-school mindsets at the time. In DragonQuest, you had to roll if you wanted to play a nonhuman; you got three tries (and different nonhumans had different chances) and if you failed all three a human was what you'd be.

You'd probably get someone claiming it was because humans were supposed to be more common (and I get it can sometimes feel like the party is a traveling circus when their demographics are completely off from the population they're adventuring in), but I suspect strongly as much of it had to do with the fact the DQ nonhumans all were flatout better than a human overall, so they decided gating that with randomness was the way to go. Because adding a permanent benefit to the lucky or those who can cheat is somehow good.

 

[overgeeked]

This brings up a mighty incongruity in the old-school argument here. The idea that you should be able to choose your race (subject to the restrictions of your ability score rolls), but you should NOT be able to choose your strength (for example), is incongruous. It illustrates that the desired limits on choice are entirely arbitrary.

Why should you get to choose your character's race? You roll dice to determine every other physical thing about the character. Why is drawing the line at race anything but a legacy issue?

It’s not incongruous. You’re assuming. You shouldn’t pick race. Roll it. Same with occupation/background. But sure, pick your class. If you want to play a weak fighter or a dumb wizard, go for it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You shouldn’t pick race. Roll it.

Also all of your physical features including age (I see you, 3e inexplicable race tables). Why leave anything to player choice? RPGs should just be gambling without money.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Is this a variation of that ridiculous “you didn’t say ‘in my opinion’ therefore you must think your subjective opinion is objective fact” nonsense?

We are supposed to accept it graciously and not be sarcastic about how it bothers us.

 

[tetrasodium]

This is an incredibly presumptuous thing to say. Beyond presumptuous. Thinking you understand another person's life to the degree that you can make this statement is indefensible.

Even if for purposes of discussion we say that a sizable percentage of players don't have the time to start at level one with characters that don't rival those made in systems built for supers games, are those players not able to start at level two three or five if the system still includes levels representative of zero to hero even though they often did in editions that had such power scale options? Are those players not able to start with an array with higher numbers like the elite array or 28/32 point pointbuy if the system still includes things like the 22 & 25 point challenging & standard point buy options? It seems like they very much could just as they did but modern d&d has removed those other options as things the gm could say are the options they want players to use for this game

Should it give more options? Probably. But that's really not what the complaints come across as; the same people seem like they'd be perfectly happy if there was only one array option but it suited their tastes. So it just comes across as complaining that its their ox being gored, rather than other people's the way it was for a long time.

D&D has always put a thumb on the scale of where characters were going to land on power scale in attributes; even when there were alternates, just the fact they were alternates did that. So the fact there's a default some people don't like is nothing new here; its just that one time the defaults served different people's needs than they do now.

You are mischaracterizing things & misrepresenting the history of d&d. Those people aren't simply saying that things need to be added, the truth is more nuanced. The support for games with power scales on par with those they prefer is not some whole new mode of play cobbled on top of a system not designed for it like E7, that support was removed entirely. Instead of both options modern d&d* has declared that style is such badwrongfun that it shall not even be mentioned, dmg271 has speed factor rules & there is an expansion on that with the greyhawk initiative UA yet gone are all but the most powerful starting options. It's an objective fact that d&d has changed in this way over time & no amount of minced words will change that.

* 5e definitely, 4e changed things too but I'm not sure & don't care the specifics because it was so different.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Geting personal. In before the lock... Anyway, it's changed, those that saw it, saw it, those that didn't, didn't. Whether it was good, bad or indifferent is subjective.

Now everyone go have bad, wrong fun.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This brings up a mighty incongruity in the old-school argument here. The idea that you should be able to choose your race (subject to the restrictions of your ability score rolls), but you should NOT be able to choose your strength (for example), is incongruous. It illustrates that the desired limits on choice are entirely arbitrary.

Why should you get to choose your character's race? You roll dice to determine every other physical thing about the character. Why is drawing the line at race anything but a legacy issue?

I'd be cool with race being determined randomly.

 

[Thunderfoot]

I'd be cool with race being determined randomly.

At least its not like the old Traveller game where you could die during character gen.