How has the 4e/3e schism affected you?

[Psion]

Do you have 3.x/4e arguments around your own gaming table? Are you currently experiencing adoption pains as your group decides what to play? Do the arguments get kind of nasty?

Any stories of actual gaming groups being split apart because of this?

Do you think that the schism you see online is reflected among the total gaming demographic? If not, why not?

Nobody in my group has expressed the least interest in 4e. Currently I have them hooked on Spirit of the Century, but the D&D drivers are either old school and/or Necromancer fans, and we have plenty of NG modules to work through. The group (or rather, the two constituent groups) use 3.0 or 3.5 for our D&D needs, and will probably continue to for some time.

Do you think the community will eventually heal itself? How long do you think it will take? What will be the result/general concensus?

If heal itself = "come around and play 4e", then no, I don't think it will happen in any great numbers. This isn't just "fear of the new" as some suggest. 4e is too targeted at a specific subset of gamers to really ever regain the percentage it lost.

If heal itself means "come to a new consensus that is happy to accept both editions in peace", then perhaps. RPGnet discusses dozens of games with tastes that run the gamut. The ranters will continue to disrupt things for a while, but one or both of two things will happen: people will get tired of the ranters and stop listening to them, or the ranters will get tired.

How does this current schism compare to past D&D base-splitting from earlier editions? The same? Worse? Better?

Well, this board was BORN around 3e. It did not transition from a previous 1e/2e board. So the strife will be worse.

Further, people were more ready for a new edition when 3e came. 2e was roundly despised, and for the first time in RPG history, there were times that games other than D&D outsold D&D.

In contrast, though 3e sales had flagged, there were no competitors that were pulling people away in droves. Though some people had become dissatisfied with 3e, many were starting new games and still having great experiences. And due to OGL, great products were still being put out for it, and the shelves of many gamers were stocked with things to do for years to come.

The "new shiny" is a powerful force, but the community at large is not in the same position to transition as it was at the dawn of 3e.

 

[BryonD]

Online, it's seriously dampened my enjoyment of online messageboards. It's not that I'm bothered by people who don't want to switch; I'm just bothered by the vitriol swirling about the subject, and the fact that it's hard to discuss the current edition of my favorite hobby without it turning into an argument at some point in the process.

Well, to put it is 3rd grade school yard terms: "They started it!"
Seriously, was WotC really so oblivious as to think that kicking a huge chunk of their fan base in the teeth wouldn't create friction? And then top that off with a marketing campaign that features repeated elements of "why the game you love really actually sucks" was a real recipe for harmony.

But hey, this all happened when 3E came out as well, right? I certainly recall the "how has the 2e/3e schism affected you" threads. Not.

 

[DMStehlek]

Our group is currently in mid-system. I'll be DM-ing something in the next month, so we have not had any 'fallout' going from 3.5 to whatever we'll play next. Our group will test drive both 4th edition and Castles & Crusades.

Important:

Any stories of actual gaming groups being split apart because of this?

I have not heard any. If anything the tables at the FLGS are still quite varied in the game systems. Two groups that have been running games for the past 15 or so years show no signs of splitting. One did switch (they finished a campaign a month prior to 4e's release), while the other is just playing out the last few sessions of a 3.5e game. Both groups occasionally swap players around for RP purposes, so I would think they'll continue that to get familiarized with 4e.

Our group - if we split up due to a change in systems/editions/whatever, then something is seriously wrong upstairs. Maybe we're just not petty enough to worry about what game system we use.

Important:
Do you think that the schism you see online is reflected among the total gaming demographic? If not, why not?

The 'schism' on-line, from what I have observed at the FLGS and just general conversations with gamers not on the internet, is just on-line. In general, the folks I've spoken with are reacting about like they did with 2nd and 3rd editions - nervous anticipation. The internet tends to bring out extreme differences in opinion, and is an easy sounding board for frustration. Face to face - people tend to be a little less keyed-up. On the other hand, the community here is quite large, and is probably closer to the 'total gaming demographic' than a smaller community.

Important:
Do you think the community will eventually heal itself? How long do you think it will take? What will be the result/general concensus?

I'm not too certain the community is wounded. There have been too many bitter words to count, and when that amount of heat is present in the argument, the words aren't really worth counting. A lot of folks will try 4e, some will enjoy it, some will not, and the rest are just happy to be gaming. The amount of time to heal - depends on how much righteous indignation was perceived by those who believe they have been personally wronged for one reason or another. It could take a few weeks to see where things are headed, or several years until 4.5e or 5e or whatever starts the cycle all over again. The general consensus - looking through my rose-tinted glasses - will be similar to 3e/3.5e, some will adjust, some will not, some don't care.

Important:
How does this current schism compare to past D&D base-splitting from earlier editions? The same? Worse? Better?

More people are on the forums now, so taking what I recall of the 'issues' when 3e arrived, the 'schism' is magnified. I really never liked 3rd edition much, and 3.5 did not change that. I still DM'd and played the game, but in the back of my head was this voice "why does combat take so long even though we've been playing for 5 years?"

The current split(s) in opinion over 4e is not much different, taken as a cross-section, than the same issue eight or nine years ago. Only now, along with the player-base, we've also got developers who are perhaps more affected by the change than the players will be. In that respect, the issue could be a bit worse depending on how much our gaming groups relied upon or enjoyed 3rd-party products.

Our group? We're going to give it a shot along with C&C to find out what system works better for our game.

 

[hong]

But hey, this all happened when 3E came out as well, right?

Yes. You just happened to have drunk the kool-aid back then.

 

[Hussar]

Further, people were more ready for a new edition when 3e came. 2e was roundly despised, and for the first time in RPG history, there were times that games other than D&D outsold D&D.

Umm, that's some pretty creative history there. No game EVER outsold D&D. Even at TSR's worst, they were still selling more than anyone else. I think the best White Wolf ever did was about 20% of the market.

Well, to put it is 3rd grade school yard terms: "They started it!"
Seriously, was WotC really so oblivious as to think that kicking a huge chunk of their fan base in the teeth wouldn't create friction? And then top that off with a marketing campaign that features repeated elements of "why the game you love really actually sucks" was a real recipe for harmony.

This is getting really old. Citation please. Can you show me where they actually say this and not how you or other people have twisted the words so that you think that they have said this?

But hey, this all happened when 3E came out as well, right? I certainly recall the "how has the 2e/3e schism affected you" threads. Not.

You obviously weren't on the boards too much when 3e came out. Check out the old alt.rec forums to see some of the vitriol against 3e. Heck, I was a PlanetAD&D regular back then and there were regular flamewars about pretty much exactly this.

I know some people want to believe that this is so different this time around, and that it will be different than the move from 2e to 3e, but, so much of it is EXACTLY the same. Same flames, same criticisms, same old, same old.

 

[Psion]

Umm, that's some pretty creative history there. No game EVER outsold D&D. Even at TSR's worst, they were still selling more than anyone else. I think the best White Wolf ever did was about 20% of the market.

You would be incorrect. It didn't last long, but VTM did, in fact, outsell D&D briefly.

 

[Mallus]

Seriously, was WotC really so oblivious as to think that kicking a huge chunk of their fan base in the teeth wouldn't create friction?

They might not have counted on anyone considering their release of 4e as 'kicking them in the teeth'. Mainly because it's not like that at all.

A new edition was inevitable (it's not like this has happened before. Twice...wait... more. This is the RPG business cycle). There were issues with the current edition. At least WotC didn't pull a Madden on the community and try to sell them the same game again.

I can understand not liking the new system. From a certain perspective, it's a very different game (though from another it's more D&D than 3e ever was). But feeling insulted by the release of 4e is daft.

 

[Steely Dan]

You obviously weren't on the boards too much when 3e came out. Check out the old alt.rec forums to see some of the vitriol against 3e. Heck, I was a PlanetAD&D regular back then and there were regular flamewars about pretty much exactly this.

I know some people want to believe that this is so different this time around, and that it will be different than the move from 2e to 3e, but, so much of it is EXACTLY the same. Same flames, same criticisms, same old, same old.

Yep, back in late 2000, it was wah wah, 3rd Ed is Diablo, now we have wah wah, 4th Ed is WoW…thrilling…

 

[Razuur]

No player in any of my groups will go near 4e. Not out of fear, they were willing to give it a chance like I was and not pre-judge.

But when the game beacame a tactical miniatrues exercise and the character options became so limited (there was not one player who could create the character they wanted in 4e), they forbade it.

Razuur

 

[Steely Dan]

1.) But when the game beacame a tactical miniatrues exercise

2.) the character options became so limited

1.) As D&D combat always has?

2.) Way more options than any previous edition.